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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by steaver, May 29, 2014.

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  1. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    How can that be true? Were you filled with the Holy Ghost from birth ky? Do you see the exceptions now?
     
  2. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Those who are born again by His enduring word was given the Holy Spirit to do the work God had for them, we cannot do it without Him.

    It is temporary and can be taken away before Christ. The Holy Spirit wasn't poured unto the earth until Jesus poured it on the earth after His resurrection it moved from person to person being born again by His word so they can do the work of God. To prepare the way for Christ who would pour out His Spirit out for all.

    Psalm 51:11
    Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

    John 7:39
    By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

    Acts 1:8
    But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

    Acts 2:33
    Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

    Acts 19:2
    and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
     
    #102 psalms109:31, May 31, 2014
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  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    You're nit picking, splitting hairs, not even considering the truth of it, that it was no different with them as it is with us.

    On the flip side, our pastor, who recently went home to the Lord, was the godliest human and had the closest relationship with the Lord that I've ever known. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he were filled with the Spirit in his mother's womb. Man do we all miss him. Think about him every day.
     
  4. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Your response shows that I have a point and you are unwilling to see that there are exceptions to the general rule with God for He is Sovereign and He is allowed to make such exceptions.

    Not everyone has a road to Damascus encounter with Jesus Christ either, to mention another exception, most must believe through faith by the preaching of the gospel. Paul heard the gospel over and over and he HATED it. Jesus had to make an exception and make a personal blinding visit to Paul, again, an exception to the rule of coming to Christ through faith alone. Some believe by seeing, most believe who have not seen.

    There are testimonies around the world of how Jesus Christ is personally visiting people because they have otherwise been too indoctrinated against Him, thus He must go beyond the normal human preaching approach.

    But the Calvinist gets hung up on the letter of the Word. No, no, there must be no exceptions! John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost from birth for a special purpose, most are not dealt with so stringently by God as is clearly seen throughout the Scriptures.

    Doubting Thomas DEMANDED he would not believe unless He seen Jesus' hands and touched His side. Where was the Holy Spirit regeneration in Thomas? Did the Spirit pass Thomas by?
     
    #104 steaver, May 31, 2014
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  5. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I have no idea what you are talking about here. The rich man requested Abraham send Lazarus from the dead to warn his brothers, Abraham tells him they have Moses and the prophets, which means the scriptures. The rich man objects as though this is insufficient evidence to believe and says if one rose from the dead, they will listen to him. Abraham says that if they will not listen to the scriptures, then they will not listen if someone rose from the dead.

    So even a miracle would not convince or persuade the rich man's brothers to repent. This shows that believing involves the will, it is a choice.

    Of course I get that it alludes to Christ, ALL the scriptures do.

    No, it is absolutely clear from scripture itself, if they would not believe scripture, they would not believe a miracle. The problem isn't that God hasn't presented sufficient evidence to believe, the problem was they did not want to believe, it was a heart problem, a problem of their will.

    It is true that the rich man should have helped the beggar who died, but this has nothing to do with the five brothers not believing if Lazarus returned from the dead. Abraham is saying the scriptures are sufficient evidence for any man to believe, if a man does not believe the scriptures, he will not believe a miracle either.

    So, you don't JUST believe because the evidence is overwhelming, you can choose not to believe even if supernatural, miraculous evidence is provided. It is a matter of the will, not evidence.

    All men have the law written on their heart and conscience (Rom 2:14-15), but men can suppress that knowledge. The rich man knew better, but he was only concerned with his own welfare and comfort in life.

    And you would be wrong. Again.

    It is plain as day that my interpretation is accurate.

    Albert Barnes interpreted this passage EXACTLY as I did. He did not see your "wacky" interpretation in this passage whatsoever.
     
  6. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    All good stuff! :thumbs: Excellent dividing of the Word of Truth!
     
  7. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    And you have pointed out some of the many internal contradictions of Calvinism today. Whenever they cannot answer (which is often) they appeal to "mystery".

    Calvinism redefines the word "regeneration" which literally means to be made "alive again", just as Jesus describes the prodigal son twice in Luke 15.

    Regeneration does not mean to be convicted, or enlightened, or illuminated, or taught, etc... Scripture shows a person can be taught or enlightened and yet fall away in unbelief. (Heb 6:4-6).

    It is logically impossible to be regenerated or "alive again" before faith, because until we believe we are dead in trespasses and sins. Only after believing and having all our sins forgiven can we be alive again.

    Calvinism has no regard for the proper definitions of words, they redefine words in a vain attempt to prove TULIP. Only the simple are fooled.
     
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    No, I reiterate what I said earlier, you have your own version of election which is OK with you, God elected a very few (the exceptions) and left the rest to their own devices. It's no different from the Calvinist view that you're so dead set against.

    No difference.

    Your system is even worse, there will be even fewer to make it to heaven under your version.
     
    #108 kyredneck, May 31, 2014
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  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Yea I know.

    So he was in hell because he never seen Christ in the Law and the Prophets and put his faith in Him?

    And if his five brothers could see Christ in the Law and the Prophets and put their faith in Christ as their Saviour they wouldn't go to hell?

    He was in hell because of his deeds. His brothers would be judged the same way, just as we all will be.
     
    #109 kyredneck, May 31, 2014
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  10. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I showed you examples that the people knew of the Christ;

    Jhn 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

    This was John the Baptist, and the priests and Levites asked him if he was "that prophet" that Moses had said would come. This is the Messiah or Christ.

    Jhn 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

    Jhn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

    Jhn 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

    Jhn 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

    You see, even the Samaritans knew the Christ would come who would save them from their sins.

    Jhn 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

    The Jews understood the scriptures far better than you realize.
     
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    And they were all capable of following the formula for eternal life as laid out in Ro 10?:

    "if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved"

    Where is that formula/incantation that is required to obtain immortality to be found in Moses and the Prophets? Show it to me please.
     
    #111 kyredneck, May 31, 2014
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  12. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Well now you are just being silly, no one has ever been saved by a formula or incantation.
     
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    No, it's exactly the denigration that you do to the gospel.

    Tell me where in Moses and the Prophets his brothers would find the way to escape hell and go to heaven. Where are they told what to do?

    What must they do to inherit eternal life?
     
    #113 kyredneck, May 31, 2014
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  14. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    It's right in my signature;

    Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

    Psa 55:16 As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.

    Psa 6:4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.

    Psa 9:10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

    Psa 25:20 O keep my soul, and deliver me: let me not be ashamed; for I put my trust in thee.
     
  15. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Whosever believes is the elect according to the foreknowledge of God.

    I would like to know how Thomas fits into the theology that the Spirit must first quicken in order for one to confess Jesus Christ is Lord? Remember, "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

    He didn't say, 'because the Holy Spirit has quickened you'.
     
  16. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Many Samaritans believed Jesus was the promised Christ simply because the Samaritan woman told them Jesus had told her every thing she had ever done.

    Jhn 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

    This verse also tells us why these Samaritans believed. Was it because they were regenerated or quickened by the Spirit? NOPE, it was because the Samaritan woman told them Jesus told her all that she ever did.

    Calvinism does not have a single verse to support people must be regenerated to believe. They can't show it.
     
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    How did you arrive at the conclusion that 'saved' and 'delivered' means eternal life? That's quite a leap of imagination on your part.

    What must the five brothers had to do to inherit eternal life?

    Come on Winman, the question is specifically asked and answered in the scriptures. Don't you know the scriptures? Or are you going to have to pitter patter yout lil' feet off and go to a commentary? Sigh, again.
     
  18. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    It was either God or the devil:

    4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.
    6 Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4
     
  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    False (you've one gigantic imagination). Only the regenerate have the law in their hearts. That's what changes their old filthy corrupt wills to do by nature the things of the law. They are justified because they are doers of the law.

    That's why the rich man is in hell. He was not a doer of the law.
     
    #119 kyredneck, Jun 1, 2014
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  20. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    You are assuming your view is correct, when that is the question.

    Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

    Does this say these Gentiles are regenerate? NOPE. So, your view is nothing but presumption on your part.
     
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