Romans 11:32, "For God hath shut up ALL unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon ALL."
ALL sinned.
So ALL need mercy
Less creative writing - more Bible please
Matthew 5
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
Romans 9
15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
An example where God speaks to Moses and declares Israel to be worthy of death - yet "shows them mercy" anyway.
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
It is God having compassion and showing mercy EVEN on those whom he knows will choose death.
Why I am not a Calvinist.. the ACTUAL topic of this thread
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by BobRyan, Mar 1, 2018.
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
"BobRyan,]
Romans 11:32, "For God hath shut up ALL unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon ALL."
ALL sinned.
So ALL need mercy
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.[/QUOTE] -
Matthew 5
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
Romans 9
15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
An example where God speaks to Moses and declares Israel to be worthy of death - yet "shows them mercy" anyway.
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
It is God having compassion and showing mercy EVEN on those whom he knows will choose death.[/QUOTE]
Not sure what your point is... I am not arguing for universalism. I am pointing out that the very Bible that you point to - shows God having mercy on the lost. This is not the same thing as claiming that once the lost go to hell -- they find mercy there.This is the Arminian position and it is what we find even in Romans 9.
By contrast your complaint about 2 Peter 3 is your claim that God most certainly does not have mercy on all ... just on the "few" of Matthew 7.
But in fact God does have mercy on all - and those that reject it will ultimately experience punishment and death - but that is not because of a lack of mercy on God's part or some sort of arbitrary selection in his mercy. -
John 1:11 “He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him NOT”
"God so loved the WORLD that HE gave" John 3:16.
"God is not WILLING that ANY should perish" 2Peter 3.
God knew Judas would fail - and yet he washed his feet.
God knew His own would reject Him - and yet He came to them and yet he weeps over them in places like Matt 23. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem.. how I wanted to save your children...but YOU would not"
Matt 23
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
Hosea 11
:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.
Though they call them to the One on high,
None at all exalts Him.
8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
How can I surrender you, O Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart is turned over within Me,
All My compassions are kindled.
Ezek 18
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"
"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11
2Cor 5
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
Isaiah 5
3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge between Me and My vineyard.
4 “What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?
5 “So now let Me tell you what I am going to do to My vineyard:
I will remove its hedge and it will be consumed;
John 1:11 “He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him NOT”[/QUOTE] -
Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member
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Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member
Revelation 22:17 corresponds with John 3:16, "The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” Let anyone who hears this say, “Come.” Let anyone who is thirsty come. Let anyone who desires drink freely from the water of life.". -
Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member
Interesting that this passage that you quote from, is actually speaking to born-again believers. It says that these were "sanctified" (ἁγιάζω), never used for the unsaved in the New Testament. Then, we also have the words, "His people", showing who these "sanctified" are. Therefore, contextually, it says that those who are "born-again", can indeed forfeit their salvation, or else these words amount to nothing. -
Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member
Not many of the Calvinistic or Reformed camp really explain Paul's words in Romans 9, a chapter they much misuse thinking it supports their form of salvation. In verse 22, which you have rightly highlighted, Paul says, "endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?" WHY would God ENDURE with MUCH (πολλῇ, "a great deal of") PATIENCE, with those who are on their way to hell? Simple answer is found in passages like Ezekiel 18, 33, where we read of God telling the wicked, that He takes no pleasure in their death, but rather that they repented and turned from their wicked ways, and got themselves saved. This is what the entire Book of Jonah is about. God sending the Prophet to one of the most wicked nations at the time, who were hell-bent on destroying Israel. YET, God, Who is Rich in Mercy, desired that these hell-deserving sinners (like I am), also share in His Wonderful Love, Compassion, Mercy, Forgiveness, Grace and Salvation. Which some on this very board deny that God can LOVE and want to SAVE any of these! As the Apostle Peter says in 2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you. does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.". Where the best textual evidence is for the reading "you" (ὑμᾶς), which is older by 100's of years than the reading in the KJV, and others, "us" (ἡμᾶς). The former includes the "scoffers" in verse 3, and ALL sinners; the latter, to the "Christians" that Peter was writing to. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
[/QUOTE]
Not sure what your point is... I am not arguing for universalism. I am pointing out that the very Bible that you point to - shows God having mercy on the lost. This is not the same thing as claiming that once the lost go to hell -- they find mercy there.This is the Arminian position and it is what we find even in Romans 9.
By contrast your complaint about 2 Peter 3 is your claim that God most certainly does not have mercy on all ... just on the "few" of Matthew 7.
But in fact God does have mercy on all - and those that reject it will ultimately experience punishment and death - but that is not because of a lack of mercy on God's part or some sort of arbitrary selection in his mercy.[/QUOTE]
What you assert and what the bible declares are two different things. -
Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Matthew 23:33. "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for a tree is known by its fruit. Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks."
So good people, of their own free will, do and speak good things, and bad people, of that same free will, do and speak good things. The problem is that there are no good people since the Fall. '......Although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth' (Genesis 9:21; c.f. 6:5). 'As it is written, "There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understand; there is none who seeks after God.......there is none who does good, no, not one"' (Romans 3:10-12). So by free will, there is no one who could be saved.
But the promise of God is, "I will put My laws in their mind, and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people" (Hebrews 8:10). It is God who makes the tree good-- sovereignly, monergistically-- and then His people obey of their own free will (Psalm 110:3).
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Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member
So, what about Jesus when speaking to the Jews who wanted to murder Him? When He tells these Jews;
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you are not willing to come to me that you may have life." (John 5:39-40)
Not as some would have it read, "they were not able to come", which the Greek text does not allow. Further, in verse 34, Jesus tells these same Jews, "but I say these things so that you may be saved". To EVERY Jew that Jesus spoke to, He did so because He wanted them to be saved.
The Bible speaks of the Holy Spirit as "convicting" the whole human race of sin, because of their refusal to accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour (see John 16:1-8). The ONLY reason that they can REFUSE, is because they have a WILL that is capable to either ACCEPT or REFUSE, this is how the Good Lord has made every human being. -
"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him NOT" John 1:11
"Salvation is of the Jews" John 4.
Both point to the sovereign action of God... both allow free will.
God sovereignly selected the Jews as evangelists. "He came to them"..
Matthew 23
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
So then we have two very different models .. one is actually in the Bible.
The other is merely much-imagined via extreme inference.
So then with a great deal of creativity you can look at this and conclude
Neither of those statements is accurate -- creative "yes". -
Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member
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You have a circular argument that presumes calvinism "as the test" for its "conclusion for Calvinism". Assuming the salient point of your own argument is not the most compelling form of response.
In the text of Matt 23 and of Matthew 7 the good fruit comes from good trees... bad fruit from bad trees.
In Romans 8:4-10 the lost "do not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they".
The change for the lost is just as Romans 10:9-11 would have it 'choosing'.
And the ability for the lost to "choose" is because 'I will DRAW ALL unto Me" John 12:32 the supernatural work of God who "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 not just the "FEW" of Matthew 7.
Your response to the texts I gave you appears to be "lets look at different texts than those".
How "instructive" to the objective unbiased Bible reader.
Where we differ is in the texts you deleted from your posts that were in my posts.. Where we differ is that Arminians believe Romans 10:9-11 ... Calvinists do not.
I think we can all see that.
"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him NOT" John 1:11
"Salvation is of the Jews" John 4.
Both point to the sovereign action of God... both allow free will.
God sovereignly selected the Jews as evangelists. "He came to them"..
Matthew 23
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ” -
1. I repeat both my post and yours in sequence so the reader does not have to sift back through the posts and "put it all together" because frankly I love how this is working out.
2. I repeat it because you keep deleting the details of scripture that in my posts in your response simply because you find them irrefutable. I then have no choice but to repeat the unaddressed irrefutable texts that don't fit in to your view. -
The Calvinist response to this..
Matthew 23
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
Isaiah 5
3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge between Me and My vineyard.
4 “What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?
5 “So now let Me tell you what I am going to do to My vineyard:
I will remove its hedge and it will be consumed;
God says "what more could I do that I have not done?"
Calvinisms says "oh I know... I know...zaaaapped me to choose of my own free will as He dictated"
The text that has "gone missing".. it only exists in Calvinist creative writing.
2Cor 5
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
======================================================
John 1:11 “He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him NOT”
"God so loved the WORLD that HE gave" John 3:16.
"God is not WILLING that ANY should perish" 2Peter 3.
God knew Judas would fail - and yet he washed his feet.
God knew His own would reject Him - and yet He came to them and yet he weeps over them in places like Matt 23. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem.. how I wanted to save your children...but YOU would not"
Matt 23
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
Hosea 11
:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.
Though they call them to the One on high,
None at all exalts Him.
8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
How can I surrender you, O Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart is turned over within Me,
All My compassions are kindled.
Ezek 18
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"
"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11 -
Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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