Will a Christian commit certain sins? PART TWO

[Brother Bob]

I myself do not believe as some, that I (they will never include themselves for it is impossible for them to ever do a sin they believe is unforgivable) may do a sin that will send me to the lake of fire. To me this is not understanding of the purpose of the Cross, becoming knowledgeable about the "Body of Christ", and of justification throughfaith with our circumcision and baptism done without hands, as we are branded with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit.

We are MARKED to be caught up to Christ Jesus in the air, bodily dead or alive. It is a "done deal", as we go about daily worshipping, praising, and doing what we are capable of doing in whatever part of His Body He has chosen for us.

God can do all that but His Grace can't keep you, just "hides it". amazing!

 

[Lacy Evans]

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This verse needs to be taken in context. The context clearly shows the audience to be already saved and therefor it is referring to sanctification (Our walk) not salvation (Our position)

1 John 3 -

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Audience established. Christians are being addressed. Salvation is a given (Unless you believe salvation can be lost)

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Now we see the two aspects of purification. One is done. (Positional salvation - he is pure) The other is practical and ongoing let him purify himelf. This is the key to understanding the whole passage.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

OK. Christian if you sin (as opposed to purifying yourself) you break the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Not sinning=abiding in him. "See" and "Know" = relationship. It cannot be "know" or "see' in an absolute sense because sanctification is the focus, not salvation and not assurance.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Again it is very simple, Little children (Saved!) don't think you are righteous outwardly iin your sin just because you are righteous positionally. To be righteous (practically) you must DO righteousnss. If you sin, you are acting like the Devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

This is how you judge your own holiness. his is how you know you are pleaseing your heavenly Father. This is how you know whether you are in danger of chastening. Are you being "born of God" or are you acting like a child of the devil? Christian, if you are not loving your brother you are not behaving like a child of God.

Matt 5 says the same thing.

Matt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust

This is not a test to see if you are "pure" in a positional sense. (That is understood if you are saved)

It is rather a test to see if I am purifying myself even as I am pure so I can be child of my Father.

lacy

 

[EdSutton]

The carnal mind is sin to God.

Agreed! but at the same time, did not Paul describe the Corinthian believers as "carnal"? No, the new nature does not, and cannot sin. However, the believer still has two natures, that new nature that cannot sin, and the "old sin nature: that is usually "all 'growed' up", and knows little else but to sin.

In fact, since the definition of the word sin "'amartanO", transliterated as 'hamartano' means "I miss the mark", meaning the mark of God's perfection, or "the glory of God", all have sinned.

Jesus paid entirely at Mt. Moriah, the penalty of sin, (and the LORD had 'covered it up to that time "with the blood of bulls and goats") but 'eradicate the old sin nature' did not happen either before or after the cross, even when God said he would 'give a new heart within man', which he does and did. Neither did He remove us from "the presence of sin", nor make it impossible for one to sin. That will happen at the "glorification" of our bodies, not before.

The Holy Spirit will lead us, guide us, strenghten us, and so forth in our daily walk, and GOd will provide a way of escape, but Scripture never says He will force us to "Do right!"

But just as the father said to his rebellious young son, "I brought you into this world and I can take you out!", God can and sometimes does take his own children out of this world. These verses have been posted many times. But what verses are not posted nor have been, nor will be, are verses that "prove" God automatically "prevents" a Christian from doing certain 'henious" sins.

But, again, sometimes "He takes us out!" And I am not in any way suggesting that those who 'die at a young age', like someone who is a Christian and is killed in an automobile accident, for example, are necessarily in this category.

Ed

 

[ituttut]

I guess 'some' members on this board dont need a savior because they are going to heaven based on their righetouness. (snipped)

Such knowledge for one so young of the Grace of God the Father come to us today through the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ. Continue to correctly divide the Word of God, finding all the answers in the Bible, not following the tradition of man.

 

[Brother Bob]

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
This is how you judge your own holiness. his is how you know you are pleaseing your heavenly Father. This is how you know whether you are in danger of chastening. Are you being "born of God" or are you acting like a child of the devil? Christian, if you are not loving your brother you are not behaving like a child of God.

Matt 5 says the same thing.

Lacy; why do you change what the scripture says and put your own meaning to it. I don't understand.

for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God

Why not accept it for what it is? The inward part cannot sin, period.

If everyone is so truthful and say "sure they are capable of any sin". How about you standing up in front of your congregations and telling them that you are capable of "hitting" on their wives so keep the close to you. Tell them you don't think you will, but you are capable, so don't take any chances

Then we see how long your remain a pastor, or praise someone else who says he is capable of "hitting on their wives".

Live what you preach on here.

 

[Lacy Evans]

I hate to interupt this bash fest, but I want to interject a compliment here....

Man, I didn't feel like it was a bash-fest at all. I have the utmost respect and love for Brother Bob, HBSMN, and the others. This has been very good debate. No name-calling, no subjective bombs.

BTW, the two verses you quoted above I interpret them to mean habitual sinners that feel no convicting of the Holy Spirit when they sin.

The problem with that interpretation IMHO, is that it emasculates the verse. No one is afraid of that. As long as I dont sin really bad for a really long time, I'm cool. As long as I feel a tiny prick of conviction, I've no worries.

Be not decieved. God is not mocked! A man will reap what he sows.

Lacy

 

[benz]

5 And to the one who does not work but believes in [1] him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness ROMANS 4:5

Since Bob keeps bringing up the same verses I thought Id do the same thing...
Even if we dont obey or work we get salvation as a gift if we believe in Jesus; that he died for our sins and rose again From the grave.
Can I get an Amen...

 

[James_Newman]

Lacy; why do you change what the scripture says and put your own meaning to it. I don't understand.

for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God

Why not accept it for what it is? The inward part cannot sin, period.

If everyone is so truthful and say "sure they are capable of any sin". How about you standing up in front of your congregations and telling them that you are capable of "hitting" on their wives so keep the close to you. Tell them you don't think you will, but you are capable, so don't take any chances

Then we see how long your remain a pastor, or praise someone else who says he is capable of "hitting on their wives".

Live what you preach on here.

What did you just do here? You "changed" what the scripture says and put your own meaning to it. John says "he cannot sin" and you say "the inward part cannot sin".

 

[Lacy Evans]

Lacy; why do you change what the scripture says and put your own meaning to it. I don't understand.

for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God

Why not accept it for what it is? The inward part cannot sin, period.

This is your own private, context-be-danged, interpretation of what the phrase "born of God" means. What does it mean for a Christian to purify himself?

And why would John, right in the middle of a talk addressed to believers about sanctification, without warning or indication, switch to telling us how we act if we are "really" saved? (Or better yet, switch without warning or indication, to addressing unvbelievers how to get "really" saved.)

If everyone is so truthful and say "sure they are capable of any sin". How about you standing up in front of your congregations and telling them that you are capable of "hitting" on their wives so keep the close to you. Tell them you don't think you will, but you are capable, so don't take any chances Then we see how long your remain a pastor, or praise someone else who says he is capable of "hitting on their wives".

OK this is starting to get annoying. When your argument gets thin, you resort to this extreme example and insinuate that if I don't believe like you, that I am an adulterer or a child molester. I mean you no disrespect, for you are my elder, but that mess needs to stop.

Live what you preach on here.

I will take that counsel from you my dear elder brother, but you get to know me better before you pretend to know how I live.

Lacy

 

[IfbReformer]

He does mean that which is "born of God" doth not sin, which is the inward part and not the flesh. Also, he that saith he hath no sin is a liar is to the flesh. I have already written to great length so there is no need to cover it again but every scripture you quote has already been gone over.

Would you dare say it is plain ignorance to say that which is born of God doth not sin, when that is what the scriptures say?


So, this part is ok and you accept it but:

Whosoever is born of God doth not sin, you cannot accept?

Instead of trying to understand what the scripture is talking about you have denied this part.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

and this:

1Jo 5:18¶We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

So the inward man cannot sin, but the fleshly man can if you are saying it in the sense that the Apostle Paul speaks it in Romans 7 then I agree:

Romans 7:14-20
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

If you mean the sin we do produced by our fleshly corrupt nature which will not be gone till we get our glorified bodies, then I agree with you.

Yet John says writes to us not to sin, but if we sin we have an advocate. So what he really meant was, if our flesh sins, we have an advocate.

But this still does not address how you read so much into a sin that leads to death that the scripture does not - this list of sins that a Christian could never do.

I have read all your posts over a few different threads, and it seems you are just saying God puts it in us to know these special sins we could never do. However this is not supported by the Scriptures.

The scriptures do teach as you have pointed out, that the Spirit teaches us what is ungodliness - we agree here. But they never tell us that the Spirit teaches us about a special list of especially ungodly acts that we could never do.

All sin is sin in God's sight - all Sin is covered by the blood, both before salvation and after.

I have witnessed to people as I am sure you have Brother Bob and I have had similar experiances. They will say - "So God will forgive you if trust in Christ and if you murder someone or commit adultery?" Unsaved people always want to test the forgiveness of God, because it is completely foriegn to them.

You take the easy way out and tell them that a Christian could never do these things so there is no issue of forgiveness. I believe that God forgives ALL sin, both before salvation and AFTER salvation.

It does not mean we should condone sin, or comfort people in their sin. What is means is that God will always forgive, their is no special list of sins that causes someone to forfeit their salvation or proves they will never save.

What proves they are saved is that they have trusted on Christ as their Lord Savior - an evidence of this is the desire to please God, and sadness over one's sin, not that a Christian does not sin, or can't do certain sins.

IFBReformer

 

[Brother Bob]

5 And to the one who does not work but believes in[1] him

If you Love me, you will keep my commandments.

 

[ituttut]

God can do all that but His Grace can't keep you, just "hides it". amazing!

I can't answer this post for you don't show what you are referring to.

 

[DHK]

for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God

Why not accept it for what it is? The inward part cannot sin, period.

If everyone is so truthful and say "sure they are capable of any sin". How about you standing up in front of your congregations and telling them that you are capable of "hitting" on their wives so keep the close to you. Tell them you don't think you will, but you are capable, so don't take any chances

They are capable. A Christian is capable of any sin, just as David proved that they are. So did Ananias and Sapphira. But you reject these testimonies.

You do what the Mormons do. You take the Scriptures you want to prove out of their context and build a false doctrine around them. The Bible does teach that Christians sin, and make provision for that sin. It does not teach that Christians cannot sin. If one holds to that doctrine the Bible teaches that the same person calls Jesus Christ a liar and the truth is not him.

Here is an example of the way that you are treating Scripture.

The Bible says in the Book of Proverbs:
He that findeth a wife findeth a good thing.

And in Mat.6:33:
Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you.

You see Bob, there is proof positive that the Bible teaches polygamy.
You do the same thing to teach the doctrine of entire sanctification.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
If everyone is so truthful and say "sure they are capable of any sin". How about you standing up in front of your congregations and telling them that you are capable of "hitting" on their wives so keep the close to you. Tell them you don't think you will, but you are capable, so don't take any chances Then we see how long your remain a pastor, or praise someone else who says he is capable of "hitting on their wives".



OK this is starting to get annoying. When your argument gets thin, you resort to this extreme example and insinuate that if I don't believe like you, that I am an adulterer or a child molester. I mean you no disrespect, for you are my elder, but that mess needs to stop.

Not accusing you just using your words where you said a christian was capable of doing such. Forgive me if it sounded too personal. I just pointing out that it seems if someone advocates you can commit such sins, they should have no problem telling their congregation. I admit I go all the way to the end of the scale to get my point across and maybe I shouldn't.

 

[Brother Bob]

What proves they are saved is that they have trusted on Christ as their Lord Savior - an evidence of this is the desire to please God, and sadness over one's sin, not that a Christian does not sin, or can't do certain sins.

IFBReformer

You have a good post but I don''t agree with it all.

You will know a tree by the fruit it bears. Do we know the fruit whether its good or bad?

 

[EdSutton]

5 And to the one who does not work but believes in[1] him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness ROMANS 4:5

Since Bob keeps bringing up the same verses I thought Id do the same thing...
Even if we dont obey or work we get salvation as a gift if we believe in Jesus; that he died for our sins and rose again From the grave.
Can I get an Amen...

I'll give an "Amen!" to this post. :thumbsup: raying: Since I'm now a :saint: !

Ed

 

[Lacy Evans]

If you Love me, you will keep my commandments.

Yes! If you want to actively love God, show it by keeping his commandments. This is how to "love" God. It is not automatic. The next chapter proves it.

John 15:9-17
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

This is how to stay close (abide in) to God. It is (again) referring to sanctification, growth, and personal relationship.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

This is for our joy. Salvation is assumed. Not loving one another will take away your joy.

15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

Friend. Thats better, deeper, closer, than servant.

16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

He is telling us as saved individuals how to be fruitful. It is absoultely talking about sanctification. To rip these verses out of their context and use them as some sort of litmus test for justification is wrong.

Lacy

 

[Brother Bob]

The Bible says in the Book of Proverbs:
He that findeth a wife findeth a good thing.

And in Mat.6:33:
Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you.

You see Bob, there is proof positive that the Bible teaches polygamy.
You do the same thing to teach the doctrine of entire sanctification.__________________
DHK

Where do you get pologamy from this?

I just refer back to Adam and Eve and let it go at that.

 

[Brother Bob]

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love;

I thought His love was His Grace and if you don't abide in His Grace then I can't see how you are saved.

another condition: If ye keep my commandments

I am amazed at how many spend this much time to advocate the saved sin as the world. amazing.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
This is for our joy. Salvation is assumed. Not loving one another (Like calling each other a child molester) will take away your joy.

I know you didn't miss this part. if ye do whatsoever I command you.

15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. Friend. Thats better, deeper, closer, than servant.


Quote:
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

He is telling us as saved individuals how to be fruitful. It is absoultely talking about sanctification. To rip these verses out of their context and use them as some sort of litmus test for justification is wrong.

Lacy

I am sorry but I believe in taking it all, there is a condition in this scripture. These things I command you, that ye love one another.

 

[DHK]

Not accusing you just using your words where you said a christian was capable of doing such. Forgive me if it sounded too personal. I just pointing out that it seems if someone advocates you can commit such sins, they should have no problem telling their congregation. I admit I go all the way to the end of the scale to get my point across and maybe I shouldn't.

Bob, I have no problem saying that a Christian is capable of committing any sin. I have and do say it, even in front of my own congregation. Yes I preach it publicly. Don't put words in my mouth. I resent that very much. Because I say that a Christian is capable (even me or you), is in no way an admission that I already have committed any of the aforesaid sins. Don't falsely accuse.