I agree, ajg. I do not believe the woman is to dominate over the man in Church, home, or wherever.
Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the Church. Wives to obey the husbands.
God did use women in the Word for specific purposes. Deborah was used because Barak would not step up to bat so to speak.
Are we to put women in office over an entire country? I don't believe that is God's will. But, as in the case of Deborah, God may allow it to happen if the right man is not willing to run.
Do I think McCain or Barak are the right man? My religious convictions would say no. My religious convictions and the fact that Bill brought shame on the Presidency when he was President would prevent me from voting for Hillary as well.
We are living in a time when men truly have taken liberal views as their position calling good evil and evil good.
Keep looking up, for your redemption draweth nigh.
Women's authority over men?
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by ajg1959, Apr 11, 2008.
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I am not a Bush fan, but I refuse to vote for a woman, or a muslim/america hater in rebellion.
What are the choices?. We have very few, so we must rely on God even more.
Is McCain any better? At least he doesnt owe a debt to the abortion and gay marriage lobbiest.
Like it or not, today, the party owns the man. We used to vote for the "man" regardless of his party, but today it has changed. Now, the party puts up the money to get the man elected, and the man owes the party many political favors.
I didnt mean to get folks so riled up on here with my thoughts, and I find it hard to believe that this is even an issue with Bible-believing Christians.
I have learned my lesson, and I will never assume again that all "Christians" honor and believe the literal word of the Bible.
AJ -
Yet we find Huldah, the prophetess, appointed by God, giving the Word of the Lord to His people (2 King 22:14-20).
This seems to be going against the consensus on this thread. -
How so? I've seen numerous people (myself included) that believe a woman can preach, just not pastor.
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I think you and I are in agreement with this. -
The key difference is the authority. A pastor has an authority over his sheep - for church discipline, spiritual leading and such. Since Paul spoke of women praying and prophesying, we know it's OK. -
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readmore,
Regarding my post concerning women in ministry, you said...
http://bible.com/bibleanswers_result.php?id=141
http://www.ag.org/top/Beliefs/position_papers/pp_4191_women_ministry.cfm
Mike -
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preachinjesus Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
It's also why Christianity, particularly evangelical Christianity, has lost so much ground and legitimacy with an unbelieving world.
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Hi again Ann,
You made many good points and IMO you would make a good teacher :)
Many have ignored the fact that both Deborah and Huldah were prophetesses of the Lord.
And in fact we know through the Scriptures that men in authority in Israel went to the prophets to get a Word from the Lord.
These went to Huldah to get the Word from the Lord.
Yes it was under the Law but even Paul said that the Law tells women to be silent.
Therefore there must be exceptions to God's rules when He Himself allows it.
Deborah and Huldah are just such cases IMO.
SFIC gave a reasonable answer. The male leadership in Israel at the time did not live up to their responsibility and went cowering to a woman for an answer and in fact God spoke to them through this woman and she was not a dumb creature such as Balaam's donkey. She had intelligence, emotions and a will, Balaam's donkey had none of these on the human level but was being used as a mindless instrument; like a telephone if you will.
Huldah upbraided and then encouraged the men who went to her in the name of the Lord.
Also, no where in the Scriptures do we find a commandment for donkeys to be silent.
What's my point?
There are exceptions. The norm is male leadership. But when the men refuse or neglect their responsibility, God makes the rules and He makes exceptions as well (at least in the OT).
There seems to be a NT exception as well IMO.
In a survey of the whole counsel of God Paul says in 1 Timothy:
1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
And this seems not to be specifically in a church context but a general rule of Christian behaviour.
"nor" (oude in the original language) does not always or necessarily mean the same as our English word "nor" but could and probably does means "not".
That means she can speak so long as by doing it she is not usurping the established male hiearchy of authority that exists in that specific local church.
We know this intuitivley because almost every church I have been a member of has allowed missionary wives to get up and speak and even teach about their mission field and we all enjoy hearing about the work from the woman's perspective.
This is because there is an absolute understanding that she is not usurping the authority of either her husband or the pastor of the local church but is a submissive co-worker; and a helpmeet to her husband and in partnership with the supporting churches.
Or often we allow women to give testimonies in a church meeting where a sermonette might be thrown in at no extra charge :)
In Asia Minor where Paul co-labored with the Spirit of Christ to establish local churches was the ever-present problem of pagan temple priestesses who, even after they were saved, probably had to be taught the normal and natural order of God's hierachy of authority and no doubt many wanted to keep their authority over males.
So, there is the norm as well as the exception in this case.
Those are my thoughts.
Thanks
HankD -
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Questioning the salvation of posters isn't allowed on the BB. Show some class. -
Husband of one wife--literally one woman man--probably was referring to no polygamy. Churches that I have been part of that use that verse to keep women out of the pulpit DO ordain single men, men who have been widowed, and men who have been widowed and remarried. Seems to be a double standard here in interpretation. Those guys are NOT husbands of one wife.
I have a dear friend who is a pastor in the most "liberal" of anabaptist churches--like any of those are truly liberal.
He tells me in his opinion there are two ways to go with women in authority. The traditional view is that from Genesis on, man is given the rule and women are under that rule. Wives are under the rule of the husband.
His church takes a different view. First off, he suggest reading the traditional male headship verses from Genesis on through the NT in the Message to get a better idea of what it really says.
If you do so, you will male and female created equal before the fall. Eve was a companion, a partner, not a lesser servant. Come the fall and come the curse, man loses his partner and is burdened with the responsibility to provide. He will rule (want to dominate.) She will still desire him (think codependent stand by your man) or try to dominate (think man hating radical feminist.)
However, in Christ, (for the born again), the curse is lifted. Man once more can have a true helpmeet, a true companion, a true partner. Scripture teaches mutual submission, stressing a man's need for respect and a woman's need for love. The veil is rent, and women, slaves, and Gentiles are no longer kept separate and less than in worship.
The battle of the sexes (part of the curse) is ended. Paul stresses that just as woman came from man, man comes now from woman, and it is time to end the "who's first" game.
They don't believe Paul teaches that the one who deliberately sinned, rather than being deceived, is therefore the better leader.
His church teaches that the husband IS to lead the family. Leading means the man literally goes first--first to sacrifice, first to model godliness, first to pray, etc. In no way does that equal being the boss.......it means being an example.
Wives ARE to follow that kind of leading.....also modelling godliness to the world, making sacrifices, praying, etc.
His church believes that true authority and leadership are matters of orthopraxy, not office or position. The one who does what Christ commands and is obedient to the Lord IS leading.....whoever that may be.
Hmm...Jesus has a lot to say about the meek, about humbling ourselves, and about those that SERVE others being the pre-eminent, not those that exalt themselves.
So when you see a man getting loud about his right to lead, and women needing to follow, you are seeing a man still living under the curse.
When you see a woman who either is willing to be a doormat, or who wants to dominate men, you see a woman who is still living under the curse.
When you see men and women humbling themselves, living right, loving and serving others, and taking that "lower place" at the banquet, you see people who know the curse is lifted.
So while I prefer McCain (actually my candidate is already ruled out), and prefer Hillary over Obama, it has nothing to do with gender. It has to do with who I believe would govern best. -
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