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Worship the Holy Ghost With Father & Son?

Discussion in 'Fundamental Baptist Forum' started by Hark, Feb 3, 2021.

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  1. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Post #34.
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I think that the Apostles knew that was the Holy Spirit speaking and guiding them Himself! he was doing for them what Jesus did before he ascended again!
     
  3. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    That is not testifying to the Holy Ghost in seeking the glory of the Holy Ghost. Peter is speaking as led by the Holy Spirit with the words from Christ Jesus to say they were lying to the Holy Ghost & to God. In context;

    Acts 5:1But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. 5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. 6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. 7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. 8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. 9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. 10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. 11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

    Note how they were tempting the Spirit of the Lord. In context, these 2 actually though they could lie to God & not just to men in what they gave to the Lord. Peter explained to them that they did not have to give what they held back, but they were lying to God what they were giving from what was sold of the land.

    In another Christian forum, one poster reported this guy who was known to be stricken mute mid-sentence supposedly by the Holy Ghost on stage during church service for which the congregation would applaud this "miracle", that guy was holding a Bible study at his house. When the poster had questioned his experience, the guy spoke up and said "This is the Holy Ghost speaking! Don't you ever doubt me again !"

    By the scripture in the KJV .. I know that was not the Holy Ghost saying that.

    All scripture testifying to the Holy Ghost, is by the understanding how scripture says He will testify in seeking the glory of Jesus Christ in serving Him. He cannot speak for Himself nor can He use His own words in speaking for Himself.

    So when you read Acts 5:1-11, it is not the Holy Spirit speaking in the manner as if He was leading Peter to say... Ananias, this is the Holy Spirit speaking, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to Me, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

    When you understand that the Holy Spirit is not speaking thru Peter about Himself in the third Person, but Jesus Christ is speaking in regards to the Person of the Holy Spirit by the Spirit in Peter, then you may understand that the Spirit speaks what He hears even here.
     
  4. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    That is Luke testifying to how Philip was taken away in being transported to another place. If you apply it to mean testifying of the Holy Ghost to glorify the Holy Ghost, then that means Luke was testifying of Philip to glorify Philip at the same time.

    So no. The Spirit of the Lord in all that He does & those led by the Spirit of the Lord testifies to Jesus Christ as the Head working in His Church, the body of believers. All credit & glory goes to the Son for it is by glorifying the Son is how the Father is glorified.
     
  5. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    That was to be understood that the Holy Spirit speaks what He hears as John 16:13 testifies in all Bibles. Of course you will find verses where it is written that the Spirit speaketh... like in 1 Timothy 4:1 but if you ignore how the Holy Spirit speaks per John 16:13, then are you ignoring how the disciples speak per Matthew 10:19-20 ?

    So it is really the disciples speaking when they speak? Is it really the Holy Spirit speaking when they speak? They are speaking; so what is Jesus saying about how they do not speak? The words that the disciples are saying as the Holy Spirit are saying are not the disciples' words nor the Holy Spirit's words, but the words of Christ.

    Luke's testimony in referring to the Holy Spirit in the Book of Acts is to testify that the disciples were not making decisions on their own intellect in serving the Lord but as led by the Spirit of Christ, with Christ Jesus as the Head of the Church & each & every believer. When He helps you align scripture altogether with the truth in His words is how we rightly divide the word of truth.
     
  6. Scripture More Accurately

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    No, that is not what it means. Any believer who reads that statement properly is not going to be thinking about Christ being the One who caught away Philip. The text plainly and indisputably says that it is the Spirit who did that.

    The Spirit intended that people who read that statement would marvel at the divine power of the Spirit to catch away Philip, and they would thus glorify the Spirit as God.
     
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  7. Scripture More Accurately

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    Paul taught that it is the Spirit who gives spiritual gifts to every believer as He (the Spirit) wills.

    1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

    There is no basis in the text to say that this passage teaches that it is Christ and not the Spirit who gives people spiritual gifts.
     
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  8. Scripture More Accurately

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    No, you are missing the point. When Theophilus, the original reader of the book of Acts, would have read Acts 5, he would not have been reading it by reading into the passage a theological formulation that seeks to make everything that the Bible says about the Spirit to be about Christ and glorifying Him instead of about the Spirit and glorifying the Spirit.

    When Theophilus would read the book of Acts, he would understand from Acts 5 that to lie to the Spirit is a grave sin that led to the death of the one who did so. Reading that, Theophilus would understand that the Spirit Himself is God and must be honored and feared as God by not lying to Him.

    In your legitimate desire to address the many wrong and very dangerous teachings and practices of various groups, you are reading into Scripture things that passages do not say and thereby not handling them correctly. You should stop trying to read a theological formulation into every passage about the Spirit. The Spirit never intended the whole Bible to be interpreted and dealt with that way.
     
    #48 Scripture More Accurately, Feb 11, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
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  9. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Also @atpollard @Yeshua1 & @Dave G

    That has to be applied as aligning with the rest of scripture since all power has been given unto the Son Matthew 28:18 & even the fruits of the Spirit are from the Son ( Philippians 1:11 ) as the words are too & the gifts of the Spirit per John 16:13-15 as the Holy Spirit aka the Spirit of the Lord in all that He does, would give the credit & glory to Jesus Christ the Lord.

    Let us take a step back and apply the Lord's help on these 2 questionable event supposedy by the Spirit answering prayers to Himself..

    When they pray to the Holy Spirit for the other baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues, & they receive tongues but it comes without interpretation & so it is assumed for private use being gibberish nonsense, was that the Holy Spirit answering that prayer? John 10:1-5 Is that why they follow a voice of stranger because they climbed up another way in prayer to get that tongue?

    When they pray to the Holy Spirit when they got slain the the spirit, was that the Holy Spirit answering that prayer?

    Proverbs 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring. 27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. 28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls. ~ KJV

    1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. KJV

    These 2 events were done in prayer by approaching God the Father other than by the only way provided for them. So why would God allow these strong delusion to occur unless they were believing a lie that they can approach God the Father other than by the only way of the Son? 2 Thessalonians 2:9-15

    So Jesus meant what He has said that there is no other way to come to God the Father for anything but by the Son. John 14:6
     
  10. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I apologize if this seems too crude, but I think that one should be able to condemn folly and point out unbiblical error without needing to castrate the Holy Spirit of Scripture and render Him an impotent errand boy for the Father and Son.
    • I agree what passes for modern "gifts of the spirit" are not Biblical and probably not from the Holy Spirit.
    • I disagree that the Holy Spirit is the "red-headed stepchild" of the Triune Godhead or that God the Father is the controlling tyrant you paint Him to be.
     
  11. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    The history of the early church in Acts is not to be done by creating doctrines or teachings or notions by having it go against scripture in the rest of the N.T. So how you apply His words in Acts has to be done in that way.

    Even here, it is written Whom the Spirit is representing as per the Lord.

    Acts 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
     
  12. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    #1 Then why would God allow the devil to respond to that prayer when it was addressed to the Holy Spirit to get that tongue?

    #2 It is the Father's will that shall be done so yes.. the Spirit of God is not going to go off on a tangent accomplishing His own will. The Son did not so why would the Holy Spirit?
     
  13. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    You are stating facts not in evidence: People are capable of babbling nonsense without demonic aid.
     
  14. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    gan
    I agree that ego tripping believers that want to be accepted with actual tongue speakers but speaking in pagan's tongues, will fake babbling nonsense to fit in, but there are pagans' supernatural tongues in the world that is gibberish nonsense .

    Isaiah 8:19 is evidence of it in the occult before Pentecost came with God's real gift of tongues that is a foreign langue to speak unto the people.

    Evidence that believers are to test the tongues from the world's tongues in 1 John 4:5-6 & not just the spirits coming over them later in life as a saved believer or felt the spirit in the worship place can be found in 1 John 4:1-6 in testing the spirits.

    Reports of this pagan supernatural tongue can be found on the internet; here is one link of a Christian source citing it in research.

    The Pagan Origins of Modern “Speaking in Tongues” – Doctrine Unites!

    I do not now what they all believe as Christians at that site but just referencing the research as found from secular sources.

    you & other readers can do your own research by whatever search engines you guys use on the internet, but the real God's gift of tongues is a foreign language of men that the tongue speaker does not know but God does & whomever God is speaking to in their native tongue des too, although not every one will believe the gospel once they hear it.

    So the phenomenon is real & can happen to believers that believe they can receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation which is the lie for why God permits those strong delusion to occur in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 That is why Paul is reminding believers in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 of when they had received the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel as to when they were first saved. That means one drink of the One Spirit by how we were all baptized by per 1 Corinthians 12:13 thus for us to speak the same thing & hold to the same judgment, there is no other drink of the One Spirit. By one calling is how & when we were all baptized by the One Spirit per Ephesians 4:4-6.

    We are to be warned of 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 & 1 Timothy 4:1-2 in our times as it is the tribulation we are living in now.

    A brother in India told me online in another Christian forum that he was worshiping the Holy Spirit that Pentecostal Sunday on the calendar when he felt liquid nitrogen seeping into his skull & he began to confess against his will, an apology to the Holy Spirit for not believing He did those dramatic manifestations like He did in the early church days any more.

    Losing self control like that when God prefers a willing apology when the spirit of the prophet are subject to the prophet as God is not the author of confusion but of peace in all churches of the saints ( 1 Corinthians 14:32-33? The manifestation of coming in to him thru his skull in a scary fashion when the Holy Spirit is already in him since salvation is proof that was not the Holy Spirit at all per 1 John 4:1-6 because 1 John 4:2 is the same thing as saying 2 Corinthians 13:5. The truth of 1 John 4:3-4 proves that is rightly dividing the word of truth of 1 John 4:2 with 2 Corinthians 13:5.
     
  15. Scripture More Accurately

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    Saying that the passage speaks of the Spirit of the Lord does not prove that "Lord" here refers to Christ. Even if it does, it does not change at all that the passage points readers to glorify the Spirit as God and as One to whom humans must not lie.

    More importantly, you are the one who is trying to make your handling of certain passages go against what the rest of Scripture actually teaches, including the book of Acts. It simply is not true that the Spirit never glorifies Himself in Scripture.

    Not just Acts, but also the Epistles reveal truth that does not support your theological formulation that you are trying to force upon the whole Bible, including the following benediction:

    2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

    Paul does not here make the Spirit as One who prefers to be in the background to Christ or to the Father, and he does not say that our communion with the Spirit is not really with the Spirit but rather it is communion with Christ.

    In effect, you set forth John 16:13-14 as teaching that the Spirit will always only glorify Christ. This is patently a wrong handling of that passage. That passage does not say what you in effect claim it says, it does not have the words "always only" in it, and it does not teach any such thing.

    You are adding to the Word of God something that it does not say.
     
    #55 Scripture More Accurately, Feb 11, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
  16. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    When Jesus was on earth, & had given the temporary dwelling of the Holy Ghost, even to Judas Iscariot ( whom was not a believer *John 6:64-71 thus not the promise of the permanent indwelling of the Holy Ghost at our salvation which was to be given when Jesus was no longer present with them but comes from the Father * John 14:25-26 ) Jesus referred to the Holy Ghost as "the Spirit of your Father" in Matthew 10:19-20 as the One that is really speaking & not them, thus the words are coming from the Father thru the temporary indwelling of the Holy Ghost in His disciples. John 16:13 confirms this.

    Now that Christ has risen & ascended to the right hand of God the father where all power has been given unto Him ( Matthew 28:18 ) just as He is always with us ( Matthew 28:20 ) is why the words of the Father are now the Son's for the Holy Spirit to be the Witness of Jesus Christ in seeking His glory per John 16:14-15 & that has to include thru us ( John 15:26-27 )

    So the Holy Spirit is the Witness of God to speak for God thru us as He as the Spirit of the Lord & the Spirit of Christ should not leave any doubt Whom He is representing in seeking the glory of.

    So read Acts 5:9 in context of that event as Luke explaining how & why those 2 saved believers had died as it was not at the hands of men nor for withholding a portion from what they had sold, but lying about it, thinking they can fool God & men. The reference to the Spirit of the Lord signifies lying to God & how by the Holy Spirit in them, was futility & a sin to do so.

    I believe you are applying His words wrong when it is the Lord of Whom we have to answer to.

    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. ~ KJV

    2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. ~ KJV

    Only God can help you see otherwise. Are the disciples of Jesus Christ glorified by testifying & serving Him? No. Then the Holy Spirit, Whom is God, is doing the same thing as the Spirit of Christ as scripture says in John 16:13-15 & John 15:26-27.
     
  17. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Notice how you inserted & this assumed the pronoun " he " is referring to the Holy Spirit as if He has a will of His own to serve Christ in that manner?

    How about another example of scripture for how many believers thinks that "he" is the Spirit rather than Christ Jesus?

    Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. ~ KJV

    Romans 8:26 testifies that the Holy Spirit makes intercessions for us indirectly for why "itself" was applied, and do note how not even His groanings can be uttered either. That is the whole point for Romans 8:27 is how can the intercessions of the Spirit's be made known to the Father?

    This "he" is Jesus as the Word of God that searches our hearts per Hebrews 4:12-16 & it is that "he" that knows the mind of the Spirit to give the Spirit's silent intercessions to the Father which is in according to the will of God because there is only One Mediator between God & men, the man Christ Jesus per 1 Timothy 2:5. This is so that when Jesus present all prayers to the Father, the Son is the One answers the prayers so that the father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers.

    John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. ~ KJV

    That is why whatever the Holy Spirit does in Christ's answering prayers, the credit & glory goes to the Son per John 16:13-15 so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers as giving thanks to the father in Jesus's name is done.

    All of that aligns with scripture. Now see the error of most modern Bibles sing NIV as an example of Romans 8:26-27 whereby they assume the "he" is referring to the Spirit & thus committing a grammatical error.

    Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. ~ NIV

    Not only does the NIV has the opposite testimony of the KJV in that He can utter groans in verse 26 above but it begs the question in verse 27. How can the "he" that is separate from us in searching our hearts & separate from the Spirit in knowing the mind of.. conclude as being the Spirit in that verse? It cannot.

    So discernment is needed when you align with the truths in other scripture as to Who that "he" is as the Spirit of Christ divides the gifts accordingly to Whose will when the Son is the Head of the body of Christ & the author & finisher of our faith too as the Son acts accordingly to the Father's will since all that the Father has is now His, as the words, the gifts, the fruits of the Spirit are by Jesus Christ to the glory of God the Father.

    Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:... 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God. KJV

    Thank you for sharing & asking questions, but you should ask yourself which scripture opposes the other scripture more & what did scripture says for Whom the scripture is for to lead seekers to go to?

    John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. ~ KJV

    1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. ~ KJV

    1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. KJV
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Holy Spirit is the ONE of the Godhead who deals with us directly now, as He decides what gifts to bestow upon us, and He teaches us thru the Bible , as He grants illumination!
     
  19. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Explain away these verses then;

    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. KJV

    Why did Jesus say that?

    Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. ~ KJV

    Why is it we are to look to Jesus Christ as the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin in running that race? Could Jesus be the One that started the good work in us by baptizing us with the Holy Ghost at our salvation & therefore be the One to finish His work in us?

    Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:.... 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God. KJV

    How come the fruits of righteousness are by Jesus Christ?

    John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. ~ KJV

    Everything the Holy Spirit does, the Spirit of Christ gives the credit & glory to the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. So no matter what verses testify of what the Holy Spirit does, the credit & glory goes to Jesus Christ as He is the Head of the Church.

    1 Corinthians 11:3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. KJV

    Ephesians 4:5But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: KJV

    Ephesians 5:23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. KJV
     
  20. Scripture More Accurately

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    This is where your thinking is not correct and where you misstate what Scripture teaches when you add the notion of "everything the Holy Spirit does . . ." to the meaning of John 16:13-14. Jesus did not teach that everything the Spirit would do and say would be that way.
     
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