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Worship the Holy Ghost With Father & Son?

Discussion in 'Fundamental Baptist Forum' started by Hark, Feb 3, 2021.

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  1. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Then you void the very reason Jesus said that. I applied everything the Holy Spirit does from what He meant in His words.

    Check with all Bible versions if you doubt the message of truth then. Starting with the KJV & NIV

    John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. KJV

    John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.” NIV

    Verse 13 is proof that the Holy Spirit can only speak what He hears because He cannot speak nor utter for Himself His own words or even groans. only the KJV kept the truth in Romans 8:26-27 whereas the NIV did not, but anyway unto the next reproof or proof.

    Verse 14 is proof that everything the Holy Spirit does is by receiving from Jesus for why He is to glorify Jesus

    If we do not glorify Paul for how some miraculous healings has happened by, then that deference is also from the Holy Spirit to the son to glorify Him.

    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. KJV

    1 Corinthians 11:3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. KJV

    Ephesians 5:23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. KJV

    Ask for wisdom from the Lord to apply His words accordingly since scripture cannot go against scripture. It is not in my power to convince you for why I am pointing you to go to Him.

    James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. KJV
     
  2. Scripture More Accurately

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    Sorry, your analysis of John 16:13-14 is flawed. You wrongly make John 16:13-14 an all-encompassing statement about what the Spirit says and does.

    John 16:13-14 is not at all a statement about what the Spirit does when He as God acts in non-speaking contexts. When the Spirit caught away Philip, the Spirit did not speak anything to Philip. Because there was no speaking involved, you are wrong to apply John 16:13-14 to that divine act by the Spirit.

    Furthermore, when the Spirit caught Philip away, He was not making known anything to Philip that Christ wanted Philip to know. We do not even know whether Philip had any idea at that actual time of what had happened to him on that occasion and Who did that to him.

    You are mishandling John 16:13-14 and misapplying it to contexts that it does not apply.
     
    #62 Scripture More Accurately, Feb 14, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2021
  3. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    There is no point to say that the Holy Spirit cannot speak from Himself or for Himself or speak on His own authority or speak on His own initiative or speak on His own accord but speak what He hears in ALL Bible versions.

    KJV and a few modern Bibles kept the truth in His words in that in Romans 8:26, not even His groanings can be uttered whereas other modern bibles testify wrongly that the Holy Spirit can groan when uttering His intercessions from Himself..

    No. In John 16:13-15, all that the Spirit does, He gives the credit & glory to Jesus Christ. Even the fruits of the Spirit are from Jesus Christ per Philippians 1:11.

    Since Luke is the author of Acts as inspired by the Holy Spirit as the words comes from Christ, I would say Philip had to have known.

    Then apply it for what you say He meant. You did left it unapplied. You do not just say I misapplied it when you have not proven the rightly dividing of the word of truth for what John 16:13-15 is to be applied as.... without undoing your point of contention.

    Plus... if you look at the role of the Holy Spirit in what He is sent to do, then how can He lead the believers in any other way other than to testify of the Son to glorify the Son and that has to include worship & not just in ministry outreach; John 15:26-27 & John 16:14 & John 13:31-32
     
  4. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I haven't read the whole thread, but find it to be very strange, doctrinally. So I feel compelled to comment.

    1. Worship is not defined in the thread, that I can find. Prayer is certainly one kind of worship, is it not? So then, are we never to communicate directly with the Holy Spirit? He communicates directly with us many, many times--check out the book of Acts if you don't believe it. So the Holy Spirit says to Philip to catch a chariot. Does Philip say, "Sorry, Jesus, the Holy Spirit just talked to me, but I guess I have to talk to you instead of Him." Really??
    2. "Don't worship the Spirit." If we do worship the Spirit, are we committing idolatry? What sin are we committing? Certainly not idolatry, because that is worship of a false god (something I saw many, many times in my 33 years in Japan). So what sin is it?
    3. When we pray to God the Father or the Son, are we then not praying to the Spirit, since they are one??
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Just seems to be bordering closely to not really seeing the Holy Spirit as a full member and person of the trinity to me!
     
  6. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    What you are missing is that groaning is a form of communication. When you hear someone groaning, you have understood something about them.

    It is without reasonable doubt that the Holy Spirit speaks all the time. He guides believers all through the book of Acts. Sometimes He speaks specifically to them, and other times He helps them to speak. He is a Holy Spirit of much communication. Note:
    1. The Spirit "gave utterance" in Acts 2:4.
    2. Acts 8:29--"Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot."
    3. Acts 10:19--"While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee."
    4. Acts 21:4--"And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem."

    Many other passages could be given. So, if the Holy Spirit speaks to a believer, is the believer then to speak to Jesus, but not to answer the Holy Spirit directly? That is just plain rude when we do it to another human. And it is rude when we do it to the Holy Spirit.
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    He is God Himself, not just a parrot for the Father and Jesus to speak thru!
     
  8. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Discern with Him now. Apply John 14:6 for what Jesus is saying that He is the only way to come to God the Father by. Are there any invitations to come to God other than to the son? Do not scripture testify of the Son so seekers will go to Him for life? John 5:39-40 Then there is a reason why you are not finding any scripture as saying you can also go to the Holy Spirit if you want to come to God the Father by.

    AND John 5:22 is a standard of judgment being raised on all believers. That standard of judgment is in John 5:23 Skepticism can be applied that well... just because the Holy Spirt is not mentioned to honor God the Father by, it does not mean it is wrong as long as we honor the Son. But you can disprove that reasoning by the latter part of verse 23 when it says "He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." That means the moment you stop honoring the Son, you are no longer honoring the Father when you honor the Holy Spirit.

    That would be dishonoring the Son for Who He is, the only Mediator between God and man.

    When you consider that the Holy Spirit cannot speak from Himself, but speaks only what He hears, ( John 16:13 ) then what is the point of communicating TO the Holy Spirit?

    That with the understanding that the Holy Spirit is not speaking from Himself, but speaking what He hears to Philip. John 16:13 It is the same as when His disciples speak, it is not really them speaking but the Spirit of their Father in Matthew 10:19-20 So the Book of Acts, Luke is trying to convey how His disciples were speaking and doing all those things; by the Spirit of Christ as the Son is the Head of the Church. Ephesians 1:22 & Ephesians 5:23 & Colossians 1:18

    Is it idolatry or is it the mind of Christ Paul warned believers to be in obedience to have in his absence in Philippians 2:5-13

    Jesus has risen so was Thomas committing idolatry when he worshipped Jesus per John 20:27-29 ? No.

    Not when the role of the Holy Spirit in leading the believers is to testify of the Son to glorify the Son and that has to include how He leads us to do in worship by only honoring the Son in order to honor the Father. John 15:26-27 & John 16:14 & John 13:31-32
     
  9. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    You are confusing salvation with Christian living. John 14:6 is clearly about believing in Christ, not living for Him. (See v. 1, "Believe.")
    Sorry, but this paragraph doesn't make any sense to me.

    Again, this is talking about salvation, not Christian living.
    You are misunderstanding this Scripture. It does not say that He does not speak, but only that the topic of His speaking is the Son, Jesus.

    The Holy Spirit is God. So we can pray to Him. End of story.
    Again, you are not being clear. You have been saying that the Holy Spirit does not speak, and not you are saying that he does speak. Which is it?
    You ducked my question. Again, if we worship the Holy Spirit are we committing idolatry, are we sinning?

    So again, we can pray to the Father as jesus taught us to, and we can pray to the Son, but we can't pray to the Holy Spirit, who is also God, part of the trinity? That makes no sense. Until you can name the actual sin that we commit if we pray to the Holy Spirit, and prove it from Scripture, then you have failed completely in this thread.

    As far as I can see, the only sin it is possible for us to commit by praying to the Holy Spirit is idolatry. But that is absolutely ridiculous since He is the true God, just as the Father and Son are.
     
  10. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    No. Jesus said clearly that He is the only way to come to God the Father by & so it is not just about salvation.

    Those who have gone astray are experiencing these supernatural phenomenon in the churches and it was invoke by praying to the Holy Spirit. I ask God why this would happen & He led me to John 10:1 which confirms the application of John 14:6

    Matthew 7:13-27 & Luke 13:24-30 testify of the judgment on saved believes professing Him if they do not narrow the way back to the straight gate, the Son in relating to God the Father; otherwise the iniquity that causes many believers to fall down in confusion is by the way of praying to the Holy Spirit Whom is not the Mediator between God and men.



    When the Holy Spirit speaks, He is relaying the message from Christ now. The words He is speaking are from Christ Jesus; the words are not from Himself as if it is the Holy Spirit that is speaking. That is what John 16:13 is saying in all Bible versions. If the prophet speaks to you from God, your relationship to God is not back through the prophet but by you to God.

    So the words from the Bridegroom thru the Holy Spirit in you, is for you to respond back to the Bridegroom Whom is really speaking.


    I had thought you were indirectly referring to the Son as worshipping Him as idolatry. My mistake. Sorry. I could not fathom you were referring to the Holy Spirit as idolatry when there is no image to consider that idolatry.

    In response to the question; not idolatry, but spiritual fornication or adultery since the Son s the Bridegroom and no scripture supports worshiping the Holy Spirit at all. You will not find one teaching that as a practice for saved believers to do and that is because God the father is calling sinners away from their spirits & their practices of worshiping spirits to a personal reconciled relationship with God the father thru His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. That is Who the Holy Spirit in us is pointing us to go to in coming to God the Father by still as scripture does too.

    When you consider how antichrist is used in scripture as ( instead of Christ or to be precise instead of the Son ) then any spirit that takes your eyes off of the Son is NOT the Holy Spirit but the spirit of the antichrist.


    The sin is not heeding His words on how to come to God the Father by in anything as it can be done by the only way of the Son. Most believers today as you are.. as if Jesus did not really say that in John 14:6, but He did because He also said John 10:1 When we go around the Son for anything in coming to God the Father by.. it is a work of iniquity.
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus stated to us that the Holy Spirit was our advocate and our interceder, so He was confused over the person and work of the Holy Spirit then?
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Holy Spirit is Himself very God, are you trying to tell Him how to operate. and to reduce him to being a glorified usher and gopher for the Lord Jesus?
     
  13. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Scripture does. I am not repeating them again since you are not reading His words.

    You have yet to show scripture where churches are taught the practice of worshiping the Hoy Ghost or honoring the Holy Ghost or even praying TO the Holy Ghost.

    Yet scripture has been shown to you the will of the Father how He wants us to come to Him for anything and that is by the only way of the Son. John 14:6 And the only way to honor Him is the Son John 5:22-23 No other way; John 10:1
     
  14. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I have read many books on the Holy Spirit (John R. Rice and R. A. Torrey are the best), and read sections on the Holy Spirit in various doctrine books and systematic theologies on the subject. I dare you to come up with a single author who agrees with you that it is a sin to pray to the Holy Spirit. (And I don't mean an Internet author, but a real theologian.) You are saying essentially, "It is a sin to pray to God." I've known Buddhists and Shintoists who would agree with that.

    I cannot tell you how terribly strange and wrong I find your position. I find your interpretation to be flawed and very incomplete. I suggest you go back to the Scriptures and study every single verse in the Bible about the Spirit, and possibly you will come out right if you are humble and listen to the Lord. I am going to bow out of this thread now before I say things I would regret.
     
  15. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    That is apparently what Hark thinks.
     
  16. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    When someone prays, "Lord, please guide me," they are praying to the Holy Spirit, because He leads the Christian.
    When someone prays, "Lord, teach me about Jesus," they are praying to the Holy Spirit, because it is He who does so.
    When someone prays to the Lord for comfort, it is the Holy Spirit who is called the Comforter.
    When someone prays to the Lord for help, they are praying to the Holy Spirit, who is the Paraclete, one "called alongside to help."

    I could give many more examples, but these alone show how anyone who prays at all ends up at some time or another praying to the Holy Spirit, even unwittingly. He is God. We can pray to Him.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    When we pray that the Lord opens their heart and minds, that is addressing the Holy Spirit!
     
  18. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    ten to not believe every spirit but test them in 1 John 4:1-6 ,
    Do you agree slain in the spirit & holy laughter & strange phenomenon that brings confusion is of the Holy Spirit or not?

    Then why is it even if they did not invoke the initial encounter as sometimes that can happen out of the blue for why the apostle John write, but when it does happen, they invoke or pray to the Holy Spirit for that to happen again and it did & still does?

    Why would God allow the devil to respond when praying to the Holy Spirit?

    You would have a hard time telling them that was not the Holy Spirit as God is not the author of confusion ( 1 Corinthians 14:32-33 ) but they prayed TO the Holy Spirit & this happened. So why would God allow that to happen? This is why; John 10:1 & John 14:6

    Cause and effect, brother. Jesus meant what He has said for why there are no invitations to go to the Holy Spirit, but to the Son.
     
  19. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    @John of Japan

    You have no scripture assigning the office of the advocate to the Holy Spirit. Only the Son is the Advocate & here is why, because of our sins.

    1 John 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.....
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    John 14:26 disagrees with you!
     
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