Would this be a fair statement?

[thatbrian]

Not completely frowned upon, but there are those that look to abundant allegorizing /spiritualizing as a support for a scheme in which the Scriptures when taken a factual would not allow.

What is troubling (to me) is that when shown that the Scriptures CAN be taken in a more factual manner, the extensive attempts to discredit such is done by those who desire to only see through allegorical/ spiritual lenses.

Does it not seem logical to take of the Scriptures that which can be factual, and then trust that just as the prophecies concerning the first advent were factual, the rest is also factual?

Why allegorize / spritualize when such does not conform either to historical events of the past, nor the presentation of faithfulness of the prophets in the past?

I was being sarcastic, and giving the KY Redneck a taste of his own medicine. Look back at his post to me, just prior.

 

[Rob_BW]

If ALL are condemned already, how is it "double or nothing" that God has elected from the fallen those whom He purposes to redeem?

Wasn't the fate of the condemned predestined when they weren't predestined to salvation?

 

[saved and sure]

Yea but Calvinists teach that the reason we choose God is because He makes us alive FIRST before we chose Him. They believe you are saved, born again and given eternal life BEFORE you call on the name of the Lord. They will tell you: How can a dead man rise from the dead unless he is made alive first?
So you are right, salvation is Unconditional from God's part, but it is Conditional from our part.

You are right Felipe. Those who believe in Calvinism teach that we have to be saved first to get saved. We are made alive after we are saved not in order to be saved.

 

[saved and sure]

Again, Jesus differs with that position: "You did not choose me, but I chose you. . ."

May I ask, why is it that you "choose Him", but others did not?

I'm not sure of the verse that you are quoting here, but if you are referring to John 15:16, who was Jesus talking to? He was speaking to His apostles so why are people applying that verse to themselves. They were Apostles who Jesus chose we are not.

 

[agedman]

Wasn't the fate of the condemned predestined when they weren't predestined to salvation?

No,

For all were condemned.

"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

Therefore, the destination is determined already. The sentence has been placed, and transportation is waiting upon the appointed time.

God did not have to condemn, the condemnation was already.

God took by His good pleasure those of His own desires to redeem. He, therefore, of those who are already destined for the lake of fire, predestined those of His own choosing to heaven.

This is why Romans states: "There is, therefore, no condemnation ..."

God did not predestine to the lake of fire. Such was the determined course (the Broadway) that all were determined of their own fallen nature to pleasurably stroll.

 

[TCassidy]

Those who believe in Calvinism teach that we have to be saved first to get saved.

Please do not lie about what others believe.

 

[saved and sure]

"saved and sure,


Nope...not really...there is a few that speak of unsaved wicked persons being appointed;

1pet;
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light

3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

[/QUOTE]
Since the fact that people who believe as the Calvinists do, it would make sense that they could cite a verse for what they believe about those who God has chosen for eternal torment.

They continue to talk about the chosen for heaven but never those who are chosen for hell. I realize that all of us are destined for hell as unbelievers but when they teach God chooses some for heaven by default He chooses some for hell.

 

[thatbrian]

I'm not sure of the verse that you are quoting here, but if you are referring to John 15:16, who was Jesus talking to? He was speaking to His apostles so why are people applying that verse to themselves. They were Apostles who Jesus chose we are not.

Hmmm. That's interesting. Do you obey the Great Commission? You know that it was addressed to the 11, right?

 

[saved and sure]

No,

For all were condemned.

"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

Therefore, the destination is determined already. The sentence has been placed, and transportation is waiting upon the appointed time.

God did not have to condemn, the condemnation was already.

God took by His good pleasure those of His own desires to redeem. He, therefore, of those who are already destined for the lake of fire, predestined those of His own choosing to heaven.

This is why Romans states: "There is, therefore, no condemnation ..."

God did not predestine to the lake of fire. Such was the determined course (the Broadway) that all were determined of their own fallen nature to pleasurably stroll.

By default those who were not chosen for heaven were chosen for hell. There is no way around that fact no matter how you spin words to make your position tenable.

 

[TCassidy]

God has chosen for eternal torment.

Nobody.

They continue to talk about the chosen for heaven but never those who are chosen for hell.

That's because there are none.

by default He chooses some for hell.

No. Sinners choose to sin. And receive the consequences of their choice.

If you are going to try to discuss election please find out what it is all about first. Contrary to popular opinion, ignorance is NOT bliss.

 

[TCassidy]

By default those who were not chosen for heaven were chosen for hell.

Please avoid making up falsehoods regarding what others believe.

 

[saved and sure]

Hmmm. That's interesting. Do you obey the Great Commission?

Is your method of answering a question by asking a question? The question was who was Jesus speaking to in John 15:16?

 

[agedman]

You are right Felipe. Those who believe in Calvinism teach that we have to be saved first to get saved. We are made alive after we are saved not in order to be saved.

How do suppose then one is saved?

For example, some teach that there is some preceding or prevenient grace (Wesley's taught this) in which God lifts a person into such a state as they may of their own will choose.

However, there is not a single Scripture in all the Book that identifies such a grace given to the lost.

Some teach that they have the authority of their own will to make such a decision as to acquire or activate God's attention that God grant (if that person is sincere enough) salvation.

However, there is not a single Scripture in all the Book that identifies such decision making ability of the unsaved.

Some teach that the Holy Spirit must do the work of awakening that person to the claims of Christ upon their life and as the Holy Spirit using the Scriptures confronts that person in the awful condition of their sinfulness, they express belief in Christ.

Such is presented in the Scriptures. Romans 10:10

 

[TCassidy]

Is your method of answering a question by asking a question? The question was who was Jesus speaking to in John 15:16?

Who was Jesus speaking to in Matthew 28:19?

You can't have it both ways. He was either speaking to His church collectively or he was only speaking to the 11.

 

[agedman]

Is your method of answering a question by asking a question? The question was who was Jesus speaking to in John 15:16?

And John 15:16 discredits Ephesians 1:11?

 

[Rob_BW]

No,

For all were condemned.

"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

Therefore, the destination is determined already. The sentence has been placed, and transportation is waiting upon the appointed time.

God did not have to condemn, the condemnation was already.

God took by His good pleasure those of His own desires to redeem. He, therefore, of those who are already destined for the lake of fire, predestined those of His own choosing to heaven.

This is why Romans states: "There is, therefore, no condemnation ..."

God did not predestine to the lake of fire. Such was the determined course (the Broadway) that all were determined of their own fallen nature to pleasurably stroll.

What does predestine mean?

 

[agedman]

Since the fact that people who believe as the Calvinists do, it would make sense that they could cite a verse for what they believe about those who God has chosen for eternal torment.

They continue to talk about the chosen for heaven but never those who are chosen for hell. I realize that all of us are destined for hell as unbelievers but when they teach God chooses some for heaven by default He chooses some for hell.[/QUOTE]
No.

You are mistaken.

Just because God purposes to select, from all that are already going to the lake of fire, those that are to be redeemed, does not mean that God "predestined" those to hell who by their own nature are walking that Broadway.

They are already condemned, ALL are already destined for hell. There is no "predetermination" made by God as to the fate of those who of their own will determine to destine themselves to the Lake of Fire. ALL are "condemned already," except of those He purposes for His glory and pleasure to redeem.

 

[thatbrian]

Is your method of answering a question by asking a question? The question was who was Jesus speaking to in John 15:16?

Who was Jesus speaking to in John 3:16?

 

[saved and sure]

Some of you may think you have scriptures to support Calvinism but it should be apparent that your interpretations of those scriptures are wrong and you shouldn't be working so hard at defending your doctrine.

God is a God of love, justice and even wrath but He is not someone who creates people to see them tormented for ever and ever with no end and no mercy as if that is somehow what a God of justice and wrath would actually do.

 

[agedman]

What does predestine mean?

In the presentation as from the perspective of God, it is to establish the fate of those He chooses to redeem.

What you seem to present is that in some manner God pre-determined who would be saved and who would be lost.

Not true. Humankind were not born without sin, but in sin, condemned already.

God must determine from all that are lost those whom He redeems.

He does not determine all that are lost. They are condemned already. Lost already. God didn't condemn them, they store up wrath for themselves. (Romans 2:5)