I knew there must be one out there somewhere.
You can almost always see them coming...
Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by All about Grace, Sep 26, 2005.
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The primary dispute here is over EMPHASIS ... in my experience most Calvinists have a tendency to emphasize knowledge (a particular brand of knowledge I might add) over practical living. I would simply argue that Jesus did the opposite. That does not make knowledge irrelevant. It simply informs us what Jesus tended to emphasize. I just think his example is a good one to follow.
Again remember how this thread started ... some guys who want to prioritize a certain type of knowledge derived from a man-made system of thought as the central point of emphasis for a ministry. What I suggest is that this type of thinking does not follow the pattern of Jesus and is not healthy for a church that seeks primarily to reach unbelievers. -
Double predestination ... oops sorry ... I meant double post
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All about Grace,
You speak about human systems as if we are supposed to listen to you, but are you more than human? Are your words more of divinity than Calvins?
It is ok for you to witness but not us or Calvin?
Your words were;
I am glad I turned in my card a few years ago and starting focusing on real people with real needs who need a real witness about a real faith.
So far I have only seen you use one verse out of Scripture in this entire thread, and it was a quote from another poster!
Matthew 22:29-- Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures...
Is there something wrong with all portions of the Bible? Are we supposed to cower and hide from "predestination".....Sovereign election.....attributes of God?
Don't you think man knows more about himself when he looks toward all things of God? Where would you get ALL types of information on important things if not from ALL of Scripture?
Monergist has given you an onslaught of great Bible verses and you do nothing but back track and tumble over your feet on all the things you stand for and against. You respond with;
Thank you for the list. It is a good one. It is irrelevant to the discussion but it is still a good list.
Wow! Now that is really smooth.
Your entire topic is based on your idea that the reformed Calvinists that come to your church are messed up as in "non spiritual".
It is you that feel they are not working according to the Sovereign will of God.
But yet you say God uses all things as He wills.
So why do you claim the Calvinists are screwed up? Does not God have the right to use them as He wills? Who are you to judge the servant of another?
So far I have not seen an apology from you for making Calvins teachings appear to be human teachings or a human system.....I expect we will never see one from you!
However, the fact remains that his teachings are based on Biblical study and although he is fully human his foundation is not.
Why should we listen to you (one that uses no Scripture) more than Calvin who always gave proof text for the claims that he made?
The premise he used was based on sound and solid Biblical principles and not things made up in his head.
This human system that you speak about was used by John Calvin as his real concerned effort in bringing people to know about Jesus Christ as well as an attempt to stop massive and severe persecution among Christians.
He used Scripture in all his points and it is one of.....if not the best confession of faith ever witnessed.
To everybody in here, I plead with you to read the first portion of John Calvins address;
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/ipb-e/epl-04/cvin1-02.txt
His very first proclamation was;
John Calvin prays Peace and Salvation in Christ.
Let the reader determine for himself the Godly system of things that Calvin was involved in.
You determine if John Calvin was pointing people away from Christ and proper living.
I think if you read it you will understand what kind of fruit All about Grace really puts out in this thread.
God bless you all, KJB -
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whatever,
Another very good and correct post!
Rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy and slander of every kind.
Show proper respect to everyone : Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honour the King.
Live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.
Grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. This is why the world hates you, Remember the words I spoke to you: No servant is greater than his master.
My father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too am working.
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, “I repent”, forgive him.
Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion and kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
For everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
The God of this age has blinded the mind of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Who has saved us and called us to a holy life - not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.
God bless, KJB -
Why are you so hung up on the man John Calvin? I think your insistence of his greatness is a little scary for even those who identify themselves as "Calvinists".
KJB -- I will allow you to have the final word here since it is obvious you misunderstand most of what I say and I have a difficult time following your thoughts. -
Sidebar here: can you point me to a passage where believers are instructed to "make God's glory known to unbelievers" as a primary method of evangelism? Just wondering. -
All about Grace,
You said (to the same effect) you would favor these people being on a remote island.
It was as if you wish to say unbelievers were of no concern to Reformed people.
You also made note to your visitors that you are a witness......as if they are not.
Later you attempt to make it known that God could use donuts, coffee, and potlucks.
And why is it you do not think He may also use His servants? (Calvinists)
I say they witness better than donuts, coffee, and potlucks.
Regards, KJB -
All about Grace,
For being a lead pastor and claiming that you love leading you sure need to figure out quite a few things.
First you should be ashamed of yourself.
When folks come to your door it does not mean they are preaching towards saving your souls since you are already in a Baptist Church.....
Maybe you could sit and fellowship with them.
You know.......slow to speak and quick to listen?
Your topic and your very first post gives us all a very good example of who you really are.
You as a leader are supposed to build up and edify those in truth. Are the attributes of God now evil to discuss? Why is it you treat these people as if they are doing wrong?
You still have not explained how you focus on telling people about Christ! Do you tell them He is not sovereign? If they are telling you He is....isn't He?
May I ask if God is sovereign.....how is it you know certainly that they are not being pushed by the power and Spirit of Almighty Sovereign God Himself?
One thing you were really honest about is how shallow you are. I am certain you said it without the same intent.
Since it is "all about grace"......do you somehow think for a moment that without the grace of God you could stand before God easier than John Calvin?
Isn't it written;
"You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.
And whoever says to his brother, "Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, "You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
Do you think out of all the things you have done in all of your life that you could escape the wrath of God by your own merit and goodness?
Would you like to tell us all about that murderer Paul? David?
By way...what Church is it that you Pastor out in the wild west?
You know that actually we read your first post........it gave many people the very first impression of you.
As for all of your other posts after your initial post....... We could almost always see them coming!
If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, “I repent”, forgive him.
Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion and kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
God bless you! KJB -
</font>[/QUOTE]Then what did you mean when you wrote, " Jesus Christ has not atoned for the whole world as in every single solitary person?" -
Hello gb93433.
Not all men are atoned for. Do you accept this? If not why not please. That God swore an oath that He would not give an atonement for all men.
Do you believe that Christ died for His people and saved His people in total? If not why not please?
I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. John 17:9 says the world does not have a prayer but only those elect.
Do you believe that Jesus does not pray for men that are not chosen?
John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
Do you believe that those who do not believe do not believe because they are not His sheep or do you reverse this scripture and say they are not His sheep because they don't believe?
john. -
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Hello webdog.
Why don't they believe?
john. -
1Sa 3:14 And therefore I have sworn unto the house of Eli, that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering forever.
"Shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering" is in reference to Eli's family being killed violently. They had committed the sin unto death according to the Law, and no offering or animal sacrifice would prevent that. This is clearly speaking of physical death, and not spiritual death.
Jesus was saying matter of factly to the jews who were looking for a sign that Jesus was the Messiah, "you don't believe I'm the Messiah because you are not my followers". He goes on in the passage to give the characteristics of who His followers are, all of which were not characteristics of the Pharisees who refused to believe in Jesus. -
Hello webdog.
So what you are saying is they did have an atonement or not?
But it is a fact: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44 says no one, this means everybody, no one means no one? No one can go to Jesus, that is, everone ever born, mankind cannot go to Jesus unless He is drawn by the Father. What does He do to those He draws? What does Jesus do to those the Father draws? No one can go to Jesus, no one can call on His name and that means no one can save themselves by calling on His name unless the Father draws him and he will be raised up. If you are not drawn to Jesus it is because you are not drawn by the Father in which case you don't stand a prayer because God hid the tree of life. And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Gen 3:22. And no one can go to Him unless drawn.
john. -
KGB,
As Seinfeld once said, "shouldn't you be out on a ledge somewhere?"
Chill bro. I will say it again: you win. It's over. There is no need to question my leadership, beliefs, theology, etc. Just settle down. Actually, you have proven my point much better than anything I can say or do.
There are times in discussions when the person with whom you are "dialoging" just does not get what you are saying. It is obvious that such is the case in our "discussion". So just go back to your Institutes and relax.
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Hello webdog.
I must say you are sticking true to form man. God says He swore an oath never to give atonement for Eli's household and you say He did! :cool: Amazing.
Answer the point man, does Jesus say He will raise those the Father draws or not? John 6:44 we were talking about and which you left half answered. What will Jesus do to those who the Father draws?
...all men. Must include Himself then or it is not all men is it? Answer required.
john. -
EDIT - By the way, I did not take your "move to some island" comment to mean that you wished that they would stay in their own churches. I took it to mean that you wanted nothing at all to do with them. That sentiment is what I find to be un-Christian. By the way, I struggle with the same feelings toward others over different issues, which is why I am sensitive, maybe overly sensitive, to this. I hope that helps explain where I am coming from.
[ September 29, 2005, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: whatever ]
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