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Matthew 23:13

Alan Gross

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
Alan Gross said:
" But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men:

( and prevent some of them from physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)

for ye neither go in [yourselves],

(physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that you might Understand and Be Saved)

neither suffer ye them that are entering

(and stop permitting and allowing those to place themselves under the ETERNAL WORD of GOD and physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)

to go in

(under the Influence of The Kingdom of God that is being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)" ( Matthew 23:13, KJV ).
Click to expand...

I do not know of any evidence that

1.) "shut up the kingdom of heaven against men":
2.) "ye neither go in"
3.) "neither suffer ye them that are entering"
4.) "to go in"

are GOD Making ANY Reference to "Salvation"

and I do not believe any evidence that 1.)- 4.)

involves GOD Making ANY Reference to "Salvation", exists.
 
Q

Quantrill

Active Member
Alan Gross said:
I do not know of any evidence that

1.) "shut up the kingdom of heaven against men":
2.) "ye neither go in"
3.) "neither suffer ye them that are entering"
4.) "to go in"

are GOD Making ANY Reference to "Salvation"

and I do not believe any evidence that 1.)- 4.)

involves GOD Making ANY Reference to "Salvation", exists.
Click to expand...

It must refer to certain aspects of salvation. Salvation entails ones initial salvation, ones experience of salvation, ones complete salvation. Or, justification, sanctification, and glorification. Or, I am saved. I am being saved. I will be saved.

So, the Jews entering into the Kingdom promised by Christ, must be an aspect of their salvation.

One thing I have noticed is that none seem to define "the Kingdom of Heaven".

Quantrill
 
Alan Gross

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
Quantrill said:
It must refer to certain aspects of salvation. Salvation entails ones initial salvation, ones experience of salvation, ones complete salvation. Or, justification, sanctification, and glorification. Or, I am saved. I am being saved. I will be saved.

So, the Jews entering into the Kingdom promised by Christ, must be an aspect of their salvation.

One thing I have noticed is that none seem to define "the Kingdom of Heaven".

Quantrill
Click to expand...

It probably is advisable to define what the words mean and can and could mean, rather than just assuming it is jumping off the page.

I defined and qualified it and remain consistent with the other of The Lord's Teaching, which is also recommended.

Consideration needs to be given to the difference between the flesh and the Spirit, when 'reading', or even thinking we are reading The Bible.

re; "there is none (lost) that seeks".

" But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men:

( and prevent some of them from physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)

for ye neither go in [yourselves],

(physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that you might Understand and Be Saved)

neither suffer ye them that are entering

(and stop permitting and allowing those to place themselves under the ETERNAL WORD of GOD and physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)

to go in

(under the Influence of The Kingdom of God that is being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)" ( Matthew 23:13, KJV ).
 
Q

Quantrill

Active Member
Alan Gross said:
It probably is advisable to define what the words mean and can and could mean, rather than just assuming it is jumping off the page.

I defined and qualified it and remain consistent with the other of The Lord's Teaching, which is also recommended.

Consideration needs to be given to the difference between the flesh and the Spirit, when 'reading', or even thinking we are reading The Bible.

re; "there is none (lost) that seeks".

" But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men:

( and prevent some of them from physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)

for ye neither go in [yourselves],

(physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that you might Understand and Be Saved)

neither suffer ye them that are entering

(and stop permitting and allowing those to place themselves under the ETERNAL WORD of GOD and physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)

to go in

(under the Influence of The Kingdom of God that is being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)" ( Matthew 23:13, KJV ).
Click to expand...

You didn't address anything I said. There are some aspects of salvation being addressed, though you say there is not.

And, you did nothing to define the 'Kingdom of Heaven'. So, I ask you, what is the 'Kingdom of Heaven'?

Quantrill
 
Alan Gross

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
Quantrill said:
You didn't address anything I said. There are some aspects of salvation being addressed, though you say there is not.

And, you did nothing to define the 'Kingdom of Heaven'. So, I ask you, what is the 'Kingdom of Heaven'?

Quantrill
Click to expand...

The presupposition of, "Salvation", is telling.

You say, "some aspects", as if that is just some given.

Like, "SALVATION" Jumps! off the Page! and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

And you didn't look for to see if it actually there, it's just assume,so.....

,...so..."Sooome Assspect".... of something is there? How? Guessing.



...

I'll put Gill's comments after mine.

He is always less fleshly-carnal-heart-deceived-minded and more Spiritual than I, his knowing the difference between the flesh and the Spirit.

Gill also is more thorough, than I, and Glorifies God more, always.

" But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men:

( and prevent some of them from physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)

Gill:...and His charge against them;

denouncing a woe upon them in this world, and that which is to come, no less than eight times;

expressing His abhorrence of their wickedness, his commiseration of their case, and their certain destruction:

"for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men":

= not eternal life and happiness, the entrance into which can neither be opened nor shut by men: those whom God determines to bring thither, shall have an entrance abundantly ministered to them, in spite of the opposition of men and devils;

though these men did all that in them lay, to hinder persons enjoying everlasting glory.

(The Meaning of "Kingdom of Heaven", as used in this verse:)

But the Gospel dispensation is here meant,

which opened by the ministry of John the Baptist, Christ and His disciples,

and which the Scribes and Pharisees did all they could to shut;

by discouraging the preaching of the Gospel, and the administration of ordinances, in which this dispensation lay;

and prejudice the minds of men against it, that they might not embrace the doctrines of it, nor submit to its ordinances: they, by their office, ought to have opened and explained the Scriptures, the prophecies of the Old Testament relating to the Messiah, and led the people into a knowledge of the mysteries of his kingdom, and encouraged them to enter into this new state of things;

which, according to the true intent of Scripture, was to take place, and now did: but instead of this, they shut up the Scriptures, took away the key of knowledge, and laid it aside;

and darkened the Scriptures by their false glosses, and obliged the people to observe the traditions of the elders, and which they call (hrwtl gyo) , "an hedge for the law" F23; to which Beza thinks, the allusion is here, and by which men were shut up, and kept from the true knowledge both of law and Gospel:

for ye neither go in [yourselves],

(physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that you might Understand and Be Saved)

neither suffer ye them that are entering

(and stop permitting and allowing those to place themselves under the ETERNAL WORD of GOD and physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)

to go in

(under the Influence of The Kingdom of God that is being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)"

Gill:..."they neither believed in the Messiah themselves, nor embraced the doctrines relating to His person and office: have any of the Pharisees believed on him? No;

they received Him not, they rejected Him, and also the counsel of God, against themselves, not being baptized with the baptism of John, the forerunner of Christ;

nor would they suffer others, that were inclined to profess their faith in Him, and be baptized, to do it;

but discouraged them all they could, by their reproachful treatment of the person, miracles, and ministry of Christ, and by their threatenings and menaces, and by their excommunications of such as making a confession of him."

( Matthew 23:13, KJV ).


Why not consent, also, to leave that consideration of "Salvation", out of our heart, and read The Word of God to Gain His Expression of What God Wants Us to UNDERSTAND.



This an attempt at an extended paraphrase, repeating Gill.


" But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven
the Gospel dispensation which opened by the ministry of John the Baptist, Christ and His disciples,

against men:
by discouraging the preaching of the Gospel, and the administration of ordinances, in which this dispensation lay;

and prejudice the minds of men against it, that they might not embrace the doctrines of it, nor submit to its ordinances:

for ye neither go in [yourselves],

"they neither believed in the Messiah themselves nor embraced the doctrines relating to His person and office:

they received Him not, they rejected Him, and also the counsel of God, against themselves, not being baptized with the baptism of John, the forerunner of Christ;

neither suffer ye them that are
entering to go in:

nor would they suffer others, that were inclined to profess their faith in Him, and be baptized, to do it;

but discouraged them all they could, by their reproachful treatment of the person, miracles, and ministry of Christ, and by their threatenings and menaces, and by their excommunications of such as making a confession of him."





( Matthew 23:13, KJV ).
 
Last edited:
Q

Quantrill

Active Member
Alan Gross said:
The presupposition of, "Salvation", is telling.

You say, "some aspects", as if that is just some given.

Like, "SALVATION" Jumps! off the Page! and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

And you didn't look for to see if it actually there, it's just assume,so.....

,...so..."Sooome Assspect".... of something is there? How? Guessing.



...

I'll put Gill's comments after mine.

He is always less fleshly-carnal-heart-deceived-minded and more Spiritual than I, his knowing the difference between the flesh and the Spirit.

Gill also is more thorough, than I, and Glorifies God more, always.

" But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men:

( and prevent some of them from physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)

Gill:...and His charge against them;

denouncing a woe upon them in this world, and that which is to come, no less than eight times;

expressing His abhorrence of their wickedness, his commiseration of their case, and their certain destruction:

"for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men":

= not eternal life and happiness, the entrance into which can neither be opened nor shut by men: those whom God determines to bring thither, shall have an entrance abundantly ministered to them, in spite of the opposition of men and devils;

though these men did all that in them lay, to hinder persons enjoying everlasting glory.

(The Meaning of "Kingdom of Heaven", as used in this verse:)

But the Gospel dispensation is here meant,

which opened by the ministry of John the Baptist, Christ and His disciples,

and which the Scribes and Pharisees did all they could to shut;

by discouraging the preaching of the Gospel, and the administration of ordinances, in which this dispensation lay;

and prejudice the minds of men against it, that they might not embrace the doctrines of it, nor submit to its ordinances: they, by their office, ought to have opened and explained the Scriptures, the prophecies of the Old Testament relating to the Messiah, and led the people into a knowledge of the mysteries of his kingdom, and encouraged them to enter into this new state of things;

which, according to the true intent of Scripture, was to take place, and now did: but instead of this, they shut up the Scriptures, took away the key of knowledge, and laid it aside;

and darkened the Scriptures by their false glosses, and obliged the people to observe the traditions of the elders, and which they call (hrwtl gyo) , "an hedge for the law" F23; to which Beza thinks, the allusion is here, and by which men were shut up, and kept from the true knowledge both of law and Gospel:

for ye neither go in [yourselves],

(physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that you might Understand and Be Saved)

neither suffer ye them that are entering

(and stop permitting and allowing those to place themselves under the ETERNAL WORD of GOD and physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)

to go in

(under the Influence of The Kingdom of God that is being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)"

Gill:..."they neither believed in the Messiah themselves, nor embraced the doctrines relating to His person and office: have any of the Pharisees believed on him? No;

they received Him not, they rejected Him, and also the counsel of God, against themselves, not being baptized with the baptism of John, the forerunner of Christ;

nor would they suffer others, that were inclined to profess their faith in Him, and be baptized, to do it;

but discouraged them all they could, by their reproachful treatment of the person, miracles, and ministry of Christ, and by their threatenings and menaces, and by their excommunications of such as making a confession of him."

( Matthew 23:13, KJV ).


Why not consent, also, to leave that consideration out of our heart, and read The Word of God to Gain His Expression of What God Wants Us to UNDERSTAND.
Click to expand...

You still didn't address what I said. And I have no interest in arguing with Gill.

Quantrill
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Van said:
Deflection once again on display.
Matthew 23:13 discussion:
Therefore the "T" of the TULIP is false doctrine. Since they did not complete the entry, they we not saved, and therefore lost, unregenerate, and having "total spiritual inability." They could not have been under the influence of irresistible grace because they were not allowed to go in. And since they were therefore not under the influence of irresistible grace, the "T" of the TULIP is false doctrine.

As far as the mistranslations found in the NIV, NLT, and ESV, note conflict created with Luke 11:52 in the NIV and ESV.
Click to expand...
Sigh...
I have read this entire thread. No deflection on atpollard's part at all. Please be truthful rather than dishonest.
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Van said:
Yes you are disagreeing with scripture.
You say no one ever seeks God but then you say those of Matthew 23:13 were seeking God.
You imply the people of Matthew 23:13 were under the influence of irresistible grace, ignoring the fact they were prevented from completing entry. Therefore they were seeking God without the influence of irresistible grace. You have ignored this truth.
Click to expand...
No. Dave is not disagreeing with scripture. He has graciously presented scripture, with no twist, so that, perchance, you might see the obstacles before you.
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Van said:
In order for God to place a person into Christ, He must choose to put them in.
God chooses to put people into Christ on the basis of faith in the truth.
Therefore when a person is coming to faith, they are entering the kingdom.
And that is before, I say again, before, they are placed in Christ and undergo the washing of regeneration, being born anew.
Click to expand...
I highlighted your works-based legalism whereby you teach salvation by merit.
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
AustinC said:
No. Dave is not disagreeing with scripture. He has graciously presented scripture, with no twist, so that, perchance, you might see the obstacles before you.
Click to expand...
Yet another fiction supporting a fiction.
 
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