Featured Let’s take a closer look at the importance of forgiveness

If you are not forgiven - you were either never saved to start with - or you have lost salvation. Obviously.

In BOTH Matt 18 and Matt 6 those who have been fully forgiven are being told to forgive others just as they have been fully forgiven.

In BOTH Matt 18 and Matt 6 - those who choose to fail in following that directive from God - experience forgiveness revoked.

This is plain for all readers to see --

And many are more willing to actually read the Bible - than some may have hoped.

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Notice that the SAME point is made in BOTH Matt 18:35 AND in Matt 6:15... Hint: This is NO exaggeration!

You cannot use the straw-rule of the form "anything Christ says that contradicts the man-made tradition of OSAS must be cast down to the level of "mere exaggeration"." as if it were Bible exegesis.

 

Is it really that plain Bob?
For that to be true these premises must be true:

First, you start with the premise that Peter is either unsaved or that he has lost his salvation? Is that what you believe.

Second, you start with the premise that the apostles are either unsaved, or that they lost their salvation. Is that what you believe.

Those are the two premises that must hold true in order for your conclusions to make any sense. The reason? That is who his audience is. In Matthew 18 he is specifically talking to Peter. It was Peter who asked him: "Lord how many times shall I forgive my brother?" The the parable of the King follows in answer to that question. Thus your conclusion that Peter is unsaved, has lost his salvation, and is in hell today. I don't know of anyone that agrees with you, especially since he is part of the foundation of the church, and his name is written on the foundation of the New Jerusalem. Obviously your interpretation is found wanting.

In Matthew 6, the context is Jesus teaching his apostles to pray.
But your conclusion is that they ALL have lost their salvation and are in hell today, even though they are the collective foundation of the church, and all their names are (except Judas Iscariot) are written on the foundation of the New Jerusalem!

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
--But Bob, they are in hell because they lost their salvation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh foolish man and your foolish interpretation. Complete heresy.

Beware!
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

If you are not forgiven - you were either never saved to start with - or you have lost salvation. Obviously.

In BOTH Matt 18 and Matt 6 those who have been fully forgiven are being told to forgive others just as they have been fully forgiven.

In BOTH Matt 18 and Matt 6 - those who choose to fail in following that directive from God - experience forgiveness revoked.

This is plain for all readers to see --

And many are more willing to actually read the Bible - than some may have hoped.

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Notice that the SAME point is made in BOTH Matt 18:35 AND in Matt 6:15... Hint: This is NO exaggeration!

You cannot use the straw-rule of the form "anything Christ says that contradicts the man-made tradition of OSAS must be cast down to the level of "mere exaggeration"." as if it were Bible exegesis.

No I do not - you merely "insert that".

I start with the premise that Jesus's lesson about those who are "fully forgiven" is a lesson about the saved. And Peter as well as ALL SAINTS are being told in both Matt 18 AND IN MATT 6 - that if they do not forgive others out of full gratitude for their own real FULL Forgiveness then they will have forgiveness revoked.

The obvious point that all can easily see.

I also note the obvious - that if you suffer the consequence of "forgiveness revoked' you are lost.

You may have thought you were able to duck the point - but the facts in this case are far too simple - easy - obvious for you to spin in some odd direction.

And we both know it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I didn't insert anything but state the context.

So you continue to hold the position that the parable of Mat.18, and the Lord's Prayer are two BIG THREATS being held over Peter and the Apostles' heads that they better forgive others or I (Jesus) am going to take away your salvation and cast you into hell for all eternity!!
That is the gem of truth we are supposed to take home from the Lord's Prayer. Forgive or Burn!! And Jesus was holding this threatening his apostles with this Forgive or Burn ultimatum! Correct? This is your position; Your corrupted SDA doctrine.
Doesn't sound like a God of love to me.

Yes indeed. Heresy is always obvious to see.

What else is obvious is that "forgiveness revoked" is a man-made doctrine nowhere found in the Bible. It is a heresy.

You are the one condemning Peter and the apostles to hell.
I don't think many here are buying into it.

 

Indeed you did - you pulled that "Peter is lost" idea out of thin air.

I never argued for it - and you quoted nothing "but you" for the proof of your made up claim.

What part of this was not glaringly obvious??

[/quote]
So you continue to hold the position that the parable of Mat.18, and the Lord's Prayer are two BIG THREATS[/quote]

I argue that the details in Matt 18 and Matt 6 OSAS arguments so 'need" to ignore - are not as easily swept under the rug as you would have it.

-------------------------


Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Notice that the SAME point is made in BOTH Matt 18:35 AND in Matt 6:15... Hint: This is NO exaggeration!

You cannot use the straw-rule of the form "anything Christ says that contradicts the man-made tradition of OSAS must be cast down to the level of "mere exaggeration"." as if it were Bible exegesis.

As already noted all of this is incredibly obvious.

The mere quote of these two texts fully debunk the man-made tradition of OSAS - for it does not "survive" the texts without some wild exegesis as you tried earlier - where YOU claimed Christ must be exaggerating when he makes these statements so detrimental to your traditions.

in Christ,

Bob

 

CONTEXT:
Matthew 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
In the context Jesus is speaking to Peter. Bob would have us believe that the Lord is threatening Peter with a loss of salvation.
There is no such thing as forgiveness revoked. That is not what he is teaching Peter. God is a God of love, and he is teaching Peter the importance of forgiveness.
Bob ignores context.

THE CONTEXT OF THE LORD'S PRAYER:

Matthew 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

Luke 11:1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
--The context is Jesus teaching his disciples to pray.

Bob would have us believe that Jesus is threatening his disciples with eternal wrath and condemnation.
In reality he is simply teaching them the importance of forgiveness.

There is no such doctrine of forgiveness revoked. It is a heresy that Bob, as an SDA is hung up on.

 

indeed.

The problem for OSAS is that a fully forgiven person should ever experience "forgiveness revoked".

This is why I keep bringing these two texts up -- as follows.

===================

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Notice that the SAME point is made in BOTH Matt 18:35 AND in Matt 6:15... Hint: This is NO exaggeration!

You cannot use the straw-rule of the form "anything Christ says that contradicts the man-made tradition of OSAS must be cast down to the level of "mere exaggeration"." as if it were Bible exegesis.

I would ask the OSAS believers to not keep dodging the "Bible details IN the text" by "pretending" that I am the author of scripture and so it is I who has "a bad idea" in the text.


I am asking you to respond to the details IN the text.

First this one -- where we see an ALREADY FULLY Forgiven servant expected to forgive AS HE WAS TRULY forgiven.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]

Then THIS ONE

Where we see forgiveness revoked - full debt returned.

[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.


Then THiS ONE
[/FONT]
Where Christ applies the lesson to His listeners.

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]



So yes that would be "Sola scriptura" testing of your man-made tradition if you can actually address "the Bible details".

So far ducking them does not count as addressing them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The problem for OSAS is that a fully forgiven person should ever experience "forgiveness revoked".

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2059301&postcount=148

This is why I keep bringing these two texts up -- as follows.

===================

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Notice that the SAME point is made in BOTH Matt 18:35 AND in Matt 6:15... Hint: This is NO exaggeration!

You cannot use the straw-rule of the form "anything Christ says that contradicts the man-made tradition of OSAS must be cast down to the level of "mere exaggeration"." as if it were Bible exegesis.

Indeed once again Christ is speaking to the "fully forgiven" in the case of the Lord's Prayer and the same message is given.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]


Matt 6
15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

So again the simple question -- does OSAS survive this "Bible detail"??

Again the nonsense as if the Bible details that OSAS needs to duck are "Bob's fault"

Good pulpit-pounding - but as usual no Bible to support this duck of the Bible details.

Your statement is true of what OSAS "NEEDS" to not find in the Bible. The problem is with what IS in the Bible that OSAS "NEEDS" to NOT be in the Bible.

Simple question for those willing to test the doctrine "sola scriptura" (which as in the dark ages - will not be "everyone").

does OSAS survive these "Bible details"?? Or is your solution to "continue to ignore the Bible on these details"??

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]


Matt 6
15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

So again the simple question -- does OSAS survive these "Bible details"??

 

Whose ducking the questions? You fail to address the material that I give you. You ignore my answers. You ignore the entire context. Your entire interpretation, if logically followed, puts Peter and the disciples in hell.
Is that what you believe?

 

You have always said? You have always said?

Proverbs 14:12. There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 16:25. There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

 

Ryan responds to nothing yet demands response to his endless repetition of the same passages of Scripture, Scripture which he never really explains! Isn't that called trolling?

For example: On this thread, by my count, he has posted the same verses from Matthew 18 a total of 21 times and the same Verses from Matthew 6 a total of 15 times.

And he has started another nonsensical thread, "Matt 18 and Matt 6 Disprove OSAS", using the same Scripture.

You are a moderator??????????

 

I point to a few simple easy texts that you must avoid at all costs. Each time I post them you duck them or give a brush-off response that will tolerate no review of the details in your response to see if they hold up to scripture.

Then here you complain that the scriptures you so need to duck and avoid - keep getting repeated AS IF ducking and avoiding them on your part is not the all-compelling all-conclusive solution you at first imagined it to be.


How in the world was that supposed to be the answer?

in Christ,

Bob

 

And we have this

That would be you - because the question above is not answered in your posts.

Shall I number those again?

Your answer is that there is no such thing as forgiveness revoked no matter the details IN the text that you need to avoid.

utterly false.

You merely "quote you' with the nonsensical argument that to warn someone of danger is to acccuse them of already being a victim of that which you are warning them to avoid.

What nonsense!! - you know it and so do I.

Yet you tout this idea of "you quoting you" and claiming that to warn of danger is to accuse all warned of already being victims.

WHO is supposed to be snookered by that kind of story?

Me????

You???

I doubt that even you believe such a flawed argument.

I think you are just trying out an "any-ol-excuse-will-do" Idea to see if someone will buy it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,
Here is the truth.
I have explained the parable to you before, and I am not going to do it again. Why? "Don't cast you pearls before swine," the Bible says. I say that, because you scoffed at my interpretation, though I believe it was well laid out and it was the Biblical interpretation. You just plain refused it, and go on posting the same passages over and over again claiming they haven't been refuted.
THEY HAVE BEEN REFUTED. You don't listen.

But now it is your turn. Why do you not listen to the objections I have raised about context. You put Peter and the apostles in hell, and won't take the time to refute why I come to that conclusion. You won't refute each and every argument why I have come to that conclusion. Why is that Bob? Are you afraid your house of cards will come tumbling down?

 

I responded to your Scripture. You lied and said I did not. Then you went back and edited that falsehood. you have failed to respond to any Scripture that others have posted. Your response is generally to repeat posting Of Matthew 18 and 6. You have posted the same verses from Matthew 18 a total of 21 times and the same Verses from Matthew 6 a total of 15 times by my count. I may have missed a few.

Rather than making endless remarks about OSAS you might better spend your time refuting the heresy of investigative judgment that is part of SDA error.:wavey:

 

I am reminding those who keep ignoring these 3 easy questions -- of just what it is they are ignoring.
================================

I am asking you to respond to the details IN the text.

1. First this one -- where we see an ALREADY FULLY Forgiven servant expected to forgive AS HE WAS TRULY forgiven.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]

2. Then THIS ONE

Where we see forgiveness revoked - full debt returned.

[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.


3. Then THiS ONE
[/FONT]
Where Christ applies the lesson to His listeners - which is obviously OUTSIDE of the parable.

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]

Which is what we also see with Matt 6. (Which is obviously OUTSIDE of a parable)
15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

So yes that would be "Sola scriptura" testing of your man-made tradition if you can actually address "the Bible details".

So far ducking them does not count as addressing them.

 

So the 3 easy questions have been numbered and they come from these two chapters as noted dozens of times by now.


===================

If you are not forgiven - you were either never saved to start with - or you have lost salvation. Obviously.

In BOTH Matt 18 and Matt 6 those who have been fully forgiven are being told to forgive others just as they have been fully forgiven.

In BOTH Matt 18 and Matt 6 - those who choose to fail in following that directive from God - experience forgiveness revoked.

This is plain for all readers to see --

And many are more willing to actually read the Bible - than some may have hoped.

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Notice that the SAME point is made in BOTH Matt 18:35 AND in Matt 6:15... Hint: This is NO exaggeration!

You cannot use the straw-rule of the form "anything Christ says that contradicts the man-made tradition of OSAS must be cast down to the level of "mere exaggeration"." as if it were Bible exegesis.

 

Bob, the chapter is not about forgiving others that you may be or stay saved (one in the same thing btw). By grace are ye saved. So your premise going into your interpreting the passage is flawed and the outcome is error.

The King forgave a huge debt the servant could not pay. You interpret this forgiveness of debt to be salvation. Forgiveness of debt is not salvation, the only way one is saved is through receiving Jesus Christ through faith and conversion. No where in the passage does it suggest the servant was saved, to the contrary, the servant's actions towards his fellow man revealed he had never received a new heart through regeneration.

The parable is a presentation of Jesus Christ forgiving His servant Israel through His sacrificial death upon the cross, and by extension both Jew and Gentile alike. All sin of the whole world has been dealt with at the cross, it is finished, it is forgiven. Jesus gave only one caveat to this forgiveness - Matt12:31.
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. As we can plainly see, ALL sin shall be forgiven - Jesus speaking of the atonement to come, and it shall be forgiven unto all men, not just those who believe on Jesus Christ. One exception. Unbelief, or blasphemy against the Holy Spirit's call to repent and believe upon Jesus Christ, shall not be forgiven unto men.

The ONLY reason anyone will find themselves in hell will be because of unbelief. From God's perspective it will not be because their many sins, it will be because of one particular sin alone, the sin of unbelief. The call to repent and be saved is first and foremost a call to repent from unbelief to belief. Afterwards, repentance from sins will be a life long experience of sanctification.

Thus, 35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' You miss the conversion clause given in the verse. The same clause given at the beginning of Matt 18 which you have also missed in your exegesis. 18:3. And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. The unforgiving servant had no forgiving heart to forgive with. No conversion, No salvation.

 

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Notice that the SAME point is made in BOTH Matt 18:35 AND in Matt 6:15... Hint: This is NO exaggeration!

By contrast we have -- the actual Bible

Matt 6: 15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Matt 18: [FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]

Now see Steaver you can directly contradict the Bible -- because you have free will and can choose that path.

By contrast we have
Matt 18:[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]


Now see Steaver you can directly contradict the Bible -- because you have free will and can choose that path.

in Christ,

Bob