#3 KJV-Onlyism Commentary

The point is that it WAS in the Hebrew text, just not the Masoretic version that we base most of our translations upon today. Yes, the Christ can modify, explain or amplify whatever He wants. The Nazarenes did not recognize Him as the Christ. Your exposition is a severe twisting of the truth of the Scriptures.

 

Will said "Natters, how logical is this argument you present?"

Very logical. Luke says it was "written". I believe that. Do you? Jesus said it was "scripture" (which, by definition, is written as opposed to spoken). I believe that. Do you?

Will said "If the KJB is disproven as being true Scripture, then so also are your "Probably Close Enuf Versions" because they also say "the place where it was written" and call it "Scripture", and yet they too differ the one from the other."

Yes, but I am not using this to "disprove" them as being scripture. I am pointing out that they are different, yet still they are scripture despite the differences. The KJV itself disproves onlyism.

Will said "In your misguided zeal to disprove the KJB as being the true word of God, you use arguments like this that destroy even your own favorite versions; then sitting in the dust surrounded by the ruins of your crumbled edifices, you proudly declare victory."

You do not understand. I am not disproving the KJV as being the word of God. I am disproving the KJV as being the ONLY word of God.

Luke says it was "written". I believe that. Do you? Jesus said it was "scripture" (which, by definition, is written as opposed to spoken). I believe that. Do you? It is a simple yes or no question, why are you and michelle unable to answer it?

 

Good catch, Clint! You're absolutely right. Keep an eye on Will. He often twists what people say. This gaffe is called a straw man argument. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man .

Sincerely,
Jason

 

Jason must be the final authority because there is no bible today that is without error and Jason says he has the answers.I wish he would hurry up and print the JG version so all of us uneducated KJO can be illuminated.

Quote by Jason:

We can all cite multiple spelling and grammatical errors from all of the KJV-Onlyists. Why is this so? Why do they all have this in common?

It is of no surprise to me that the KJV-Onlyists seem uneducated.
End quote.

I humbly apologize, none of us KJO made it past grade 6.

 

KJV EPH 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

Please, let's see an attempt to apply this verse to the conversations on this topic lately.

Gina

 

Please show God and the Bible respect by capitalizing the "B" in Bible. Until my recent experiences with the KJV-Onlyists, the atheists were the only group that I've ever seen use this device. Please don't tell me it was an accident because you've done it repeatedly.

The original autographs were inerrant. The manuscripts we have today reveal this. The KJV isn't inerrant.

I do have the answers to the tough questions about the Bible because I have done thousands of hours of research, but I am not the only one. These answers are readily available to those that wish to study.

Sincerely,
Jason

P.S. Artbook, don't forget that mockery isn't a fruit of the spirit. The attitudes of the KJV-Onlyists have done more damage to their heretical beliefs than their poor arguments will ever do.

 

To answer in part some of Clint's questions about apostasy in seminaries, I present the following information.

There are more links if you are interested, or just go online, and type in Apostasy Seminaries, and you will find lots of info.

Princeton, Yale, Harvard and most other universities in this country started off as orthodox, Bible believing training centers, but soon apostasized. Others branched off from these, which in turn apostacized.


Here is a fairly recent poll done at a Southern Baptist seminary.

http://bz.llano.net/baptist/apostasyatsbts.htm

Article by Bynum about Southern Baptist seminary.
I KNOW GOD REALLY EXIST.

Diploma Students-------------------------------------------100%
1st Year M.Div.---------------------------------74%
Final Yr. M.Div.--------------------------65%
I BELIEVE JESUS WAS BORN OF A VIRGIN.


Diploma Students------------------------------------------96%
1st Yr. M.Div.------------------------------66%
Final Yr. M.Div.--------------33%

PROOF THAT SOUTHERN BAPTIST THEOLOGICAL
SEMINARY PRODUCES UNBELIEF

In 1976, Noel Wesley Hollyfield, Jr., wrote his thesis for a Master of Divinity degree from SBTS, Louisville, KY. Hollyfield's thesis was titled: "A Sociological Analysis of the Degrees of 'Christian Orthodoxy' Among Selected Students in the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary." His thesis was read and approved by the SBTS committee composed of G. Willis Bennet, chairman, E. Glenn Hinson, and Henlee Barnette. Their approval indicates that they believe that the contents were accurate and the conclusions validated.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------Diploma----1st Year----Final Yr.-----Grad.
QUESTIONS & ANSWERS---------Students----M.Div.------M.Div.-------Students

I know God really exists
& I have no doubt about it.-------------100%--------74%---------65%---------63%

Jesus is the Divine Son of God
and I have no doubts about it.--------100%---------87%---------63%--------63%

I believe the miracles actually
happened just at the Bible says
they did.---------------------------------------96%---------61%---------40%--------37%

The Devil Actually Exists:
Completely true.----------------------------96%---------66%---------42%--------37%
Probably true.---------------------------------4%---------18%---------26%--------15%
Probably not true.----------------------------0%---------12%---------23%--------32%
Definitely not true.----------------------------0%----------5%----------9%---------15%

There is Life Beyond Death:
Completely true.---------------------------100%---------89%---------67%-------53%

Jesus Was Born of A Virgin:
Completely true.-----------------------------96%---------66%--------33%-------32%
Probably true.----------------------------------4%---------17%--------33%-------37%
Probably not true.-----------------------------0%---------14%--------21%-------15%
Definitely not true.-----------------------------0%-----------2%--------12%------15%

Jesus Walked On Water:
Completely true.-----------------------------96%---------59%--------44%-------22%

Do You Believe Jesus Will
Actually Return To Earth
Some Day?
Definitely.------------------------------------100%--------79%---------56%--------53%

HOW NECESSARY FOR SALVATION DO YOU
BELIEVE THE FOLLOWING TO BE?

Belief In Jesus As Saviour:
Absolutely necessary.--------------------100%--------85%--------60%--------59%

Holding The Bible To Be
God's Truth:
Absolutely necessary.----------------------73%--------42%--------33%--------21%

TO WHAT DEGREE DO THE FOLLOWING HINDER SALVATION?

Being Completely Ignorant Of
Jesus As Might Be The Case
For People Living In Other
Countries:
Definitely---------------------------------------70%--------24%--------26%--------26%

Being Of The Hindu Religion:
Definitely---------------------------------------39%--------29%--------16%--------21%
Probably---------------------------------------17%--------17%--------26%--------16%
Possibly------------------------------------------9%--------36%--------42%--------42%
Not hinder--------------------------------------35%--------19%--------16%--------21%
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hollyfield's thesis proves that modernism is being taught at SBTS, and that it is having a devastating effect upon the students. The SBJ in a digest of Hollyfield's thesis correctly said, "The MORE EDUCATION students get at Southern Seminary the LESS THEY BELIEVE." The thesis of 159 pages contains numerous charts which show beyond any doubt that the more education Southern Baptist students have and the longer they study at SBTS, the more liberal and modernistic they become in doctrine.

Keep in mind that Hollyfield was a student at SBTS and that his thesis had to be written and approved before he could receive his Master of Divinity degree. His statistics were gained by using a standard 37 question questionnaire that was answered by the students. If his method had been unfair and biased, no doubt the three member faculty committee would have rejected the thesis.

Hollyfield considers the students under 7 different statistical tabulations. For our purpose we shall consider only four of his statistical groups, which will give us an overall picture of the modernism that SBTS is producing. For the convenience of our readers, we shall number these four divisions of students and explain what they are.

Diploma students. Most of these would not be college graduates and therefore ineligible for the seminary degree. These would tend to be more orthodox and fundamental, since they have not had part of their faith destroyed in a Southern Baptist college.

First year M.Div. students. (Master of Divinity). These would be college graduates with perhaps most of them being from Southern Baptist colleges. Final year M.Div. students. These students would have already spent many hours in the SBTS classrooms, plus much research work. Their beliefs would tend to show whether SBTS was building faith, or destroying faith. We should closely watch the difference in the beliefs of first year M.Div. students and final year M.Div. students. Graduate students. (Ph.D., Doctor of Philosophy; Th.M., Master of Theology). These would be the most advanced students and the most highly educated of all students.

The above facts and figures provide irrefutable proof that Southern Seminary does not produce faith but destroys it. You would believe that faithful Bible teaching in a seminary should produce greater faith in the Bible and the fundamentals of the faith. The student might come to school with some questions, but as Bible believing professors taught and influenced the students, unbelief would be replaced by faith. At Southern Seminary they come believing the Word of God and leave in unbelief (at least believing less than when they came.)

For instance 100% of the diploma students (the uneducated) believe in the existence of God. Only 74% of the 1st year M.Div. and 65% of the final year M.Div. believe that God really exists. That means that 9% lost their faith in the existence of God in Seminary. Among diploma students 100% believed in Jesus as the Divine son of God. Only 87% of the 1st year M.Div. students believed that, and only 63% of the final year M.Div. students believed it. That means that 24% of the M.Div. students lost their faith in Jesus being the Divine Son of God during their time at Southern Seminary. I would say that this is absolutely appalling to say the least. Also the question needs to be asked, why does SBTS accept students for a M.Div. degree who do not believe in the existence of God or that Jesus is the Divine Son of God?

The above chart shows that 21% of the M.Div. students lost their belief in miracles while in Southern Seminary. By that time only 40% of these even believed in miracles. During their stay at southern seminary 24% of the M.Div. students lost their belief in the existence of the Devil, and only 42% in their final year even believed in the Devil. While in Seminary 22% lost their belief in life beyond death. How sad that 33% of the M.Div. students lost their belief in the Virgin Birth of Christ while they were in SBTS. Only 33% were completely sure that they believed in the Virgin Birth of Christ.

During Seminary 25% of the M.Div. students lost their belief that it was absolutely necessary to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. During the final year only 60% believed it was necessary. These and many other frightening trends may be gleaned from the condensation of Hollyfield's findings.

The question that each of the 35,000 churches of the SBC must face is: "Shall we continue to send mission money to help pay the salaries of professors who teach their students that the Bible is not the infallible Word of God, thus destroying their faith?" These students who graduate are going to become pastors, teachers in seminaries or colleges, and thus destroy the faith of those who sit under their ministry.

See http://bz.llano.net/baptist/apostasyatsbts.htm

for the whole article.

Another article on the apostasy in modern Evangelicalism by David Clould found here:

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/fbns/fbns450.html

 

In all of this I see no data tying anything to modern versions, which was your original contention.

The questions I posed to you on this topic were:

You have cited a single piece of data that does not answer the questions I posed, just as it did not answer it the first time you posted it.

 

From your source: http://bz.llano.net/baptist/apostasyatsbts.htm

Patterson on the HCSB:

 

Will,
Your citation of the above data is frivilous at best and off topic. To prove that you have an inspired KJV, you must prove that it is inerrant. That in itself is an impossibility as you well know but will not admit. Any slight difference, however slight it may be--whether it be a difference between the Oxford and Cambridge editions (which there are), whether it be differences between the various editions of the KJV (which there are), or whether it be obvious mistakes of translation (which plenty have been cited)--the slightest difference or error or mistake, demonstrates beyond any shadow of a doubt that the KJV is not inspired. An inspired Bible is absolutely inspired, infallible in all its points, translated in every point with infallibe perfection (no such thing), and totally inerrant and perfect. There is no translation in the world (and never has been) that meets these qualifications. The Bible was verbally and plenary inspired by holy men of old as they were moved by the Holy Spirit of God, to write the very words of God, that God intended them to write. Those words were written down but one time in history. Only the original autographs were inspired. No other manuscript was inspired.

Please explain 2Peter 1:21 in the light of the above explanation, or else be yourself an infidel and do not believe the Bible what it says concerning inspiration. While you are at it look up 2Tim.3:16 and explain it. Don't rationalize but give a good exegesis of these verses.

Who were the holy men of old? Which words did they speak? Where are those words now? How do you know? Give evidence? What does the word "inspiration" mean? How does it differ from "preservation?" Explain yourself using Scripture.

You have a Bible that is fallible and errant, translated by sinful men, that made many mistakes in it. It is a good possiblity that some of them were not even saved. How therefore could the Holy Spirit even guide an unsaved individual in a translation?? Have you ever read an objective biography of these men? I have.
DHK

 

Will,

The point is not how many seminaries are dead. Dead seminaries come from dead people. If someone comes to a seminary dead most likely they leave dead. If they come alive they leave alive.

Just remember the greatest teacher to ever live and rise from the dead failed with one. So do you blame Jesus too?

Think of how many others are around Jesus and didn't follow Him. Think about what the Pharisees thought of Jesus.

Life is too short and too many people to disciple that I don't have time to try and raise the Pharisees from the dead. Jesus couldn't even do anything with those religionists. They were set in their ways and knew what righteousness was.

You can spend your time bad mouthing the religionists or doing something about making disciples. What will you choose?

It seems too that what you are promoting is a stupid faith. How about making a change and reading some good books by godly men who contend for the faith. Read some by the apostle Paul, A.T. Robertson, Henry Morris. All those men are very well educated.

I am so surprised that you would even entertain such blasphemy against scripture to promote ignorance.

Try reading 2 Tim. 2:15, 16.

That was quite a slam against the President at SBTS. You are just showing how outdated and quilty you are of not doing your homework.

Your quotes demonstrate your lack or research. Just another example of old data and cut and paste.

Why don't you start doing some of your own homework and looking up some original references.
You certainly did not look up Liddell & Scott and Kittel.Otherwise you wouild have gotten the right page numbers and not quoted a sentence ot two from something that had nothing to do with your point. Just like the way your high school English teacher taught you to document your sources in a term paper.Act like a real Christian and use some integrity in your documentation. Start giving the sources in context of your information.

[ September 26, 2004, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: gb93433 ]

 

Ever seen God use ignorance?

Seems to me like Paul the apostle was very well educated. Wasn't he?

 

This is another straw man argument. Whether someone learns Hebrew has nothing to do with whether or not the scriptures are inerrant. We have an inerrant Old Testament despite anyone's education.

What if we did have to learn Hebrew before we could prove that the scriptures are inerrant?

What if this is the case, Will? What if we had to learn Greek in order to prove the scriptures are inerrant? We obviously can't prove the scriptures are inerrant by using the KJV alone. You couldn't.

Jason

 

In my weekly devotional messages, I use the NKJV. However, I thought a particular passage was a little wordy this week, so I checked The Message. It put the scriptures beautifully. Here is a cross-examination of the different translations. You decide which one is best.

Philippians 3:12-14

KJV:

12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

NKJV:

12Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

The Message:
I’m not saying that I have this all together, that I have it made. But I am well on my way, reaching out for Christ, who has so wondrously reached out for me. Friends, don’t get me wrong: By no means do I count myself an expert in all of this, but I’ve got my eye on the goal, where God is beckoning us onward—to Jesus. I’m off and running, and I’m not turning back. So let’s keep focused on that goal.

JG

 

Hmmm...The NKJV is good. The message does put it into todays venacular, and pretty plainly. But, is The Message a paraphrase, or is it a translation??? I don't have that much info on it.

AVL1984

 

14 pages, and I'm STILL waiting for scriptural support for single-translation-onlyism. This is the second time I've asked in this thread alone. If it were a doctrine that all Christians must adhere to, then I will be happy to. All I need is scriptural support for it.

I await scriptual support with an open mind and receiving heart.

 

Regarding the formal debate with Will at http://kjvonlyism.jcsm.org , here is what I just sent to the moderators.


I appreciated Gina locking this thread. However, I don't appreciate:

1. Will being allowed an extra post. He posted an 8th round post after our final, 7th round posts. This is in terrible form and I will never debate here again if that post isn't moved or deleted.

For Will to be allowed an extra round post in our debate is TERRIBLE. I'm not allowed an extra round post. Why is he? At least, move it to the commentary section.

2. I don't care for Gina's commentary. I don't feel she represents the truth or how most people feel about the debate. Frankly, a moderator like her for this debate shouldn't be the focus of it and her comments should be removed.

Gina's comments are just that: comments. Therefore, they should be made in the comments thread and not the debate thread. The debate thread should have been closed directly after the debate.

If I do not hear from a moderator besides Gina in a day or two, I will email some moderators because I'll have to conclude Gina received this message and rejected it.

Sincerely,
Jason Gastrich

 

When stupidity reigns scholarship is non-existent and humility is out.

 

Jason, you are free to respond to Will. Let me know when you have prepared your response and I will reopen it for your final response.
Also, as I did state that all responses other than didn't come from you or Will would be deleted, I will delete or move mine after 24 hours.
For the record, I do not appreciate your attitude. I went out of my way to have this one on one debate allowed on the board, which is not normally something that we have happen since the board is open to all, and spent a good deal of time editing your post for you and editing the entire thread so that you and/or Will could have the benefit of being able to read and copy it with ease. As I would not do it again after the spirit shown on the thread, it does not sadden me to learn that you would not participate in another one. If you do decide to do so, good luck finding another moderator willing to spend their time on unappreciated efforts on your behalf.
Gina

 

Gina,

Thanks for your message.

I appreciate you removing your post from the debate thread. However, I will not be responding to Will; at least not in the debate thread. Our debate has ended. If you allow Will to keep his 8th round post in our 7 round debate thread, it will be very unfortunate.

It's hard to understand how you could say I'm not appreciative. I've continually thanked Baptist Board in my debate posts. Plus, I've posted a number of links to the debate in my weekly messages to 25,000 people and on my web site. I choose this venue out of thousands and I helped direct a lot of traffic (and will continue to do so) and interest to Baptist Board. This is, in part, my thanks to you.

I thought I was clear about my posts. I did try breaking them into parts - about 3 or 4 parts - and they still did not post. Forgive me if I didn't thank you up and down for helping me post a message. Frankly, I think there was a problem with your forum software because my posts weren't long at all - as I told you. I did everything I could to post it and I shouldn't have had to do anything except copy, paste, and click "Add Reply." Nonetheless, I appreciate everyone's efforts to get my message posted on the forum. It's too bad that it took any extra effort at all.

If you all knew something was wrong with the forum software and that the agreed upon length of the posts couldn't be posted due to excessive length, then why wasn't it mentioned as we agreed on the terms of the debate?

Anyhow, thanks for everything. I enjoyed the debate and I know others did as well.

Sincerely,
Jason Gastrich