How is it not accusing someone of wrong motives to call entertainment what they call worship?
A video of my girls dancing in church...
Discussion in 'Music Ministry' started by annsni, Dec 25, 2008.
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Now, can we please the personal attacks and ad hominems out of this discussions, and return to the discussion relating to the OP. -
DHK, I will compliment you that you are at least consistant...
I think our differences basically come down to this...
I don't think God limited everything we do in the 21st century church to what the 1st century church did... doctrine yes, but practices have changed... The first century church was a very persecuted church... no room for dancing and praising God the way we do today.. .they were running for their lives, hiding in homes... they didn't even have a church building to use...
You limit (or think you do) 21st century worship to how the 1st century church worshipped...
There are 2 words for these stances... and for the life of me I can't remember them... but I am one, and you are the other...
Do you know what words I am thinking about?... it is terms that describe church practices..
And since we disagree on those terms, we will never agree.
But one thing we do agree on... whatever is done in church should glorify God. -
I thought of them.. the normative and regulative principle of worship...
I believe in the normative principle... you believe in the regulative principle...
That is the basis of this debate. -
Try applying 2 Cor. 10:5.
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Did someone say 'Chicken wings''... I think I am going to give thanks to God (worship him) for giving us Chicken wings from Buffalo! lol
OK< on with the debate... -
Believe me; our worship is far different, and we need to be thankful for the freedoms that we do have, the technology that we have, the homes. and all the amenities of life even clean and safe water. I used to have to boil all my water.
I think our technology interferes with our worship. Perhaps that is why it was so difficult for great men like Spurgeon to accept the organ into his church.
But back to reality here. If I can use my family as an example (hopefully without personal attack), you will see that I am not as anti-music as I may come across.
Everyone in my family but me knows how to play the piano.
A couple of them can do well on the organ as well.
My wife plays the flute.
Two of my sons play the guitar; one of them plays a "penny whistle," and recorder.
There are two in the family that play the auto-harp.
We do have instruments in the house, and we do use them. Music is great, especially Godly music. One must search the Bible for principles as to what is Godly and what is not. That is where I believe we disagree. It is not on the instruments per se, but how the instruments are used. It is not on that particular dance, but on the venue of the dance. When the piano is played in church, hymns are played. There may be a time or two when one of them might play an annoying song like "The Entertainer," but never in church. That would be at home. Not that that type of music is entirely wrong; but the church is not the place for it.
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I can echo the sentiment about house churches and sitting on the floor. We do that as well. I like it, except when they set me in the chief seat, which happens to be right by the woodstove. The first 5 minutes of it are nice, but sitting there for two hours is almost unbearable.
There is nothing fancy about our services. We have no pews, no instruments---though we do have hymn books (sort of). We sing for at least an hour (no harmony. These people don't harmonize---and if you wanted to, you couldn't). Our voices sound so nice! I enjoy this type of church service! -
DHK,
Thats just one example of course.
If a person dancing is dancing for God...and the dance is not nude/erotic/lewd etc...then it brings glory to God.
This is not rocket science, DHK...its pretty simple.
:godisgood: -
DHK - I missed the quote that Alive in Christ just posted.
I've found that those who are most vocal against something that Scripture is silent or not overly vocal on (alcohol, dance, music, instruments, etc.) are those who had dealt with identifying those things with their former sinful life. For you, dancing is associated with a sinful lifestyle and therefore you gave it up when you were saved. For you, dancing is viewed as something wrong. It's the same thing that someone who was heavy into the rock and roll scene before they were saved might be one who's absolutely overly vocal against CCM because to them, it brings back the sinful life in their minds and hearts.
However, for the vast majority of people, it is not a sin nor associated with any sinful lifestyle. I did not experience sinful dancing or anything of the sort. The ONLY dancing I did as a teen was square dancing and a couple of fun dances at school. So I have no association with it at all.
It makes more sense to me now. -
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For the vast majority of people "homosexual marriages" are acceptable, and are not sinful, nor associated with any sinful lifestyle--just as you say. Just because it wasn't as common when you were a teen, or is more widely accepted now doesn't make it sin, does it. Even the government has changed the definition of marriage to accommodate homosexual marriages. Like you say: For the vast majority of people it is not a sin!
This is your reasoning. Sin changes with time. Sin changes with culture. Sin changes with society or as societal mores change. I am sorry, but my principles are based on the Bible not on culture and not on society. You are badly confused if you base your principles on culture rather than the Bible. There is only one standard when it comes to right and wrong--and that is the Word of God.
You can believe what you want. But I back up my beliefs by the Word of God. And dance is one thing you cannot back up by the Word of God. -
Homosexuality is declared sin by the word of God...
Dancing is not.. .
That is the difference.
You have failed to show where dancing is a sin from the Word of God.. -
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No where have I said dancing is in the NT.. I don't limit Biblical hermenuetics to the NT.. .the OT is valid also...
You associated dancing with homosexuality in post 132, and alluded that dancing is sinful.
But you fail to show that from the scriptures.
Worship Dancing is not in the NT. But God accepted it in the OT, as a matter of fact when Michal complained about David dancing, God punished her.
God has not changed.
I don't limit everything done in churches today to the NT...
You don't either..
So why would dancing be any different?
If a person is doing it to the glory of God, who are you to complain? It was dangerous for Michal to complain. -
Theres something I dont understand, DHK.
I have seen you vigorously argue against Church of Christers who say everything must come from the New Testament to be valid for us today. You say...correctly...that we go according to the entire counsel of the scriptures, not just the NT.
Now, however, you discredit David dancing unto the Lord, because its from the old testament, and everything must be proven from the New Testament.
Could you explain about this?
Thanks.
:godisgood: -
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There is an article done by a Baptist at http://www.pastornet.net.au/renewal/journal6/coleman.html
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I have been in those countries where Christians Christians are executed for their faith. The Christian community mourns, weeps, sometimes uncontrollably. The more carnal Christians begin to riot against the government if they have opportunity or strength in numbers. Often that is not the case. Never have I seen Christians dance because because their Christian brothers and sisters were executed. Having experience as a missionary, I find that hard to believe. I find that hard to believe being acquainted with church history as well. People mourn the death of a loved one, they don't dance when they die.
I don't want any of my people to participate in any dance--period.
Dance is carnal. It has no place in the church. Next thing you will be doing is copying the RCC and be holding weekly BINGO nights, gambling away all your money, but calling it just an innocent recreational activity. They both belong in the same category--carnal, of the world. And they don't bring glory to God.
As for godliness, that is just a matter of opinion.
I don't believe any kind of dance is Godly, nor can it be. It is a carnal activity, and always was.
From your highly biased link which was started by a person who was a dance co-ordinator at an Australian church doing a research paper for a secular university: Queensland, he makes this statement:
"The first tradition centred around dance performed by the clergy as part of the Mass."
The RCC is not Christian. They are a church that teaches salvation by works, and points people to Hell. Hindus dance also. Who cares if the RCC dance!
The paper is highly prejudicial and innacurate in its sources. It contradicts known facts researched by others far more objective. This guy took a conclusion and then tried to prove it. He was biased before he started. -
DHK - to compare worshipping dance to BINGO is just ridiculous. Where does BINGO EVER even mention God? Where does it focus on God? I know you will say that dance doesn't focus on God but I find it does - if it's done towards God. We have a large deaf congregation and much of our dance incorporates sign language. You can see speaking of God and His greatness in most of our dances - the deaf read it clearly and the congregation understands very clearly what "God", "Lord", "Creator", "worship", "praise" and such is visually.
If you can compare the kind of dance that my girls did with BINGO, then I can compare singing hymns to shopping. It makes no sense.
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