Anyone willing to help found a NEW Christian nation?

It might have something to do with the fact that they don't have a case. Hawaii petitioned for statehood, and it was approved. Statehood, as demonstrated by numerous cases after the Civil War, is permanent. There's no "out" once you're "in".

If California decided to secede, I certainly wouldn't be in favor of it. I'm a US citizen first and foremost, and a Californian second. Now, I love my state, and love the region of the state wherein I live. And, if we were to secede and become a soverign nation, we'd have the 9th largest GDP in the world. But we chose to be a state, and once a state, always a state.

 

I beg to differ. As a US territory, the Hawaiians could have petitioned to leave the US and gain its own sovereignty. But they didn't. They chose to voluntarily join the US as a state.

If you want to get down to to the brass tacks, our taking the country over from the Native Americans could be considered illegal, and many have made that arguement. I certanly don't favor leaving the contental US and tucking tail back to the UK.

Nope sorry, I think you're crying over spilt milk. If you didn't want to be a part of the US, then ya shouldn't have petitioned for Statehood.

 

Oh yeah, the governor, reps and senators who were elected by the Hawaiian people.

No one's stolen your property. You're still living on it. Last time I checked, you had representation in the Government (federal, state, local), representatives in which you voted for.

 

this is a shame that you equate Christians as intolerant toward blacks and wanted to keep them as slaves. also to equate the sodomites as the same as blacks is a horrid example, how can you place the color of people in the same light as a sinful lifestyle is dishonoring.
you do not like Christians that is another shame.

Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

this is a shame that you equate Christians as intolerant toward blacks and wanted to keep them as slaves. also to equate the sodomites as the same as blacks is a horrid example, how can you place the color of people in the same light as a sinful lifestyle is dishonoring.
you do not like Christians that is another shame.

Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. </font>[/QUOTE]Romans 1:32 goes to all sinners, not just homosexuals. Let's not forget that. Romans 1 is an illustration of man's sinfulness using specific sins, not an exhaustive list of sins. The homosexual acts and the picture of pagan orgies and the references to natural and unnatural go beyond the practice itself and the sin list itself. The idea is that man, not just the specific sinners listed by type does something unnatural, i.e. worshiping idols, instead of what is natural, i.e. worshipping God, but that the exchange is what is characteristic of all mankind after the fall. The "natural" mind does that which is "unnatural," therefore the intent of redemption is to restore man to his true, intended state, what is really natural, the state that is capable of worshipping God and the state which does not give approval to anything else. In other words, all sin is idolatry, and the nature of man deceives itself, repudiates the truth, and gives license and approval to it and actively sins and does evil, all in the name of idolatry, which is ultimately the worship of self, which is the very height of creation, for we are God's ultimate acheivement in the natural, physical realm.

What I think Scott is saying is that SC simply has a history of intolerance toward blacks, which was demonstrated in its secession. I don't think he equates homosexuality or sin itself with race. His point is that withdrawing from the Union is not the answer. Withdrawing from the Union won't make the Union's problems go away. In fact, it would do just the opposite. Creating a "Christian nation" isn't the answer to changing people's hearts.

The great irony, as an aside to this conversation, is that if you go into Atlanta's gay community there are an inordinate amount of gay men from Greenville, SC living there. What's more, there are a lot of gay men living there that grew up in very intolerant and dysfunctional Christian homes. I know two men from Greenville who are from Christian homes that have ties to Bob Jones University. However, they're home lives were severely dysfunctional. Not only are they gay, they are heavy crystal meth addicts. I know a third whose father and mother were Christian missionaries, the father was even the head of their denomination's missions society (an independent Baptist Bible denomination from Indiana), and both he and his sister (who lives in SC, ironically) are gay. He told me that when his parents found out, his mother told him that she wished she had aborted him. There seems to be a correlation between fundamentalism in it's more raw forms and dysfunctional famlies. Could it be that somewhere along the way, in the name of Christian fundamentalism, we went wrong somewhere and somehow ended up setting up the very community home and family conditions that have made the homosexuals about which we speak so much? If so, then seceding from the Union in the name of protesting homosexuality would most certainly not be the wisest thing.

 

Slavery was often justified by (mis)using the Bible. I do not think the Bible justifies slavery, but most of the South was Christian (at least in name)at the time they had slaves.

To leave is to dishonor what we are told to do in the Bible -- be salt and light; be a light on a hill; speak the truth in love; be in the world but not of it; etc.

I really hope this SC thing does not take off. I think it would be a horrible witness to the world for Christ. We can stay where we are and continue to oppose legislation we find immoral. If it passes, then we will just have to buckle up and take a stand against it while speaking the truth in love.

We are not supposed to be coddled somewhere where we can have things our way. We have it so easy here in the U.S. compared to other places where Christians can't meet openly, can't hold jobs, have their homes burned, are tortured, or are killed. So now we have gay marriage in Mass. and some Christians want to run away? Can't take it? Can't deal with it? What does that say about our faith?

 

this is a shame that you equate Christians as intolerant toward blacks and wanted to keep them as slaves. also to equate the sodomites as the same as blacks is a horrid example, how can you place the color of people in the same light as a sinful lifestyle is dishonoring.
you do not like Christians that is another shame.

Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. </font>[/QUOTE]Romans 1:32 goes to all sinners, not just homosexuals. Let's not forget that. Romans 1 is an illustration of man's sinfulness using specific sins, not an exhaustive list of sins. The homosexual acts and the picture of pagan orgies and the references to natural and unnatural go beyond the practice itself and the sin list itself. The idea is that man, not just the specific sinners listed by type does something unnatural, i.e. worshiping idols, instead of what is natural, i.e. worshipping God, but that the exchange is what is characteristic of all mankind after the fall. The "natural" mind does that which is "unnatural," therefore the intent of redemption is to restore man to his true, intended state, what is really natural, the state that is capable of worshipping God and the state which does not give approval to anything else. In other words, all sin is idolatry, and the nature of man deceives itself, repudiates the truth, and gives license and approval to it and actively sins and does evil, all in the name of idolatry, which is ultimately the worship of self, which is the very height of creation, for we are God's ultimate acheivement in the natural, physical realm.

What I think Scott is saying is that SC simply has a history of intolerance toward blacks, which was demonstrated in its secession. I don't think he equates homosexuality or sin itself with race. His point is that withdrawing from the Union is not the answer. Withdrawing from the Union won't make the Union's problems go away. In fact, it would do just the opposite. Creating a "Christian nation" isn't the answer to changing people's hearts.

The great irony, as an aside to this conversation, is that if you go into Atlanta's gay community there are an inordinate amount of gay men from Greenville, SC living there. What's more, there are a lot of gay men living there that grew up in very intolerant and dysfunctional Christian homes. I know two men from Greenville who are from Christian homes that have ties to Bob Jones University. However, they're home lives were severely dysfunctional. Not only are they gay, they are heavy crystal meth addicts. I know a third whose father and mother were Christian missionaries, the father was even the head of their denomination's missions society (an independent Baptist Bible denomination from Indiana), and both he and his sister (who lives in SC, ironically) are gay. He told me that when his parents found out, his mother told him that she wished she had aborted him. There seems to be a correlation between fundamentalism in it's more raw forms and dysfunctional famlies. Could it be that somewhere along the way, in the name of Christian fundamentalism, we went wrong somewhere and somehow ended up setting up the very community home and family conditions that have made the homosexuals about which we speak so much? If so, then seceding from the Union in the name of protesting homosexuality would most certainly not be the wisest thing. </font>[/QUOTE]i disagree with you for the most part. it is the developing of sin that has resulted in the extreme depravity of sodomites, romans one shows the developing results, please stop making excuses for homosexual behavior. my point is that you do no favor to blame Christian fundamentalism for homosexual causes.
you have some good biblical input at times, but this time you missed the mark by a mile.

 

I don't think so. What people don't realize is that every ex-gay group in the country says that homosexuality is a learned behavior that comes from inappropriate childhood formations with regard to the same sex parent or same sex peers in early childhood that gets sexualized as the child grow older. Is it a result of sin? Yes. Are homosexual acts sinful? Yes, certainly.

However, homosexuality is also a psychological problem a dysfunction that everybody that ministers to homosexuals in "ex-gay" ministry says exists. It is not "just" a result of sin in the heart of man; it is a manifestation of the man's inhumanity to man too. It is a systemic sin, not just an individual sin. That's what makes it such a problem. It is a sin borne from pain. Drug addiction is often the same. People don't just wake up in the morning and decide to be attracted to the same sex. They don't try to hide their pain in a bottle, a powder, pills, or needles for no reason. These sins are systemic sins in both their result, their act, and their origin. I find that, as I said, there is a strong correlation between homes that come from the more raw fundamentalist Christian backgrounds, too strong a correlation to be ignored.

We spend so much time repudiating homosexuality and homosexuals that we don't spend time getting to know them. When you get to know them, you start seeing that there are a significant portion of them coming from these homes and these communities. That's one unfortunate reason groups like the Metropolitan Community Church have thrived.

Think about it. What's the best way to get a drug addict to do drugs? Tell him what a horrible person he is. What's the best way to get a sex addict to act out? Same answer. If it's true as our own Christian counselors agree that homosexuality has a root cause in these formations and is a learned behavior, then the surest way to make a gay person is, in fact, to put them in a dysfunctional, intolerant home.
Fundamentalism in its raw forms sometimes breeds contempt. Sometimes it breeds men, fathers, that can't and don't express their love for their sons, sons that end up being gay. The things we say to people do affect them. If the community itself is severely intolerant, then as the child grows up s/he feels even more rejected.

If perceived rejection is a root cause of their pain, then the community only reinforces that rejection, and so on. Its a case of loving the sinner but not the sin, but acting in a manner inconsistent with such statements. The teaching on loving the sin and hating the sinner is found in John 8 in the story of the woman caught in adultery. Jesus pardoned her sin, but only after pointing it out, and he told her to go and sin no more. He did not spend time making her feel rejected or horrible as a person with no care for her soul, unlike the crowd that had used her as a test for Jesus' respect for the law, without care for her soul, and without respect for the law that demanded the male caught with her be put on trial with her. That's what I'm saying here. We must deal redemptively with homosexuals. We must discern their sin and act accordingly, but not in the way that the crowd did in John 8. We do that too often.

I'm not making any excuses for homosexuality or blaming fundamentalism. I am simply pointing out the correlation.

 

On the other hand, let's look at all the kids who were brought up in Christian Fundamentalist homes who are NOT gay. I see that as an "excuse."

Sadly, too, there are a lot of kids who were brought up in Christian homes (PK's, MK's, DK's, too) who now claim to be athiests. It's an excuse.

The drug addict and alcoholic have excuses, too. There's probably not one member on this Board who doesn't have someone close to them in their family or someone they know who doesn't have a son, daughter, or other loved one with a substance abuse problem.

The root problem is sin and making choices. We all make them. And we can all make excuses or give a copout for our choices. The key is owning up and getting real with ourselves and with Jesus, not making excuses. Only when we get real with ourselves and with Jesus can He set us free.

 

I agree that the root problem is sin and that there are many persons from fundamentalist Christian homes that are not gay. However, like I said there are lots and lots of gay persons that came from dysfunctional fundamentalist Christian homes and communities. That's where their feelings of oppression come from and why not dealing redemptively with them only reinforces their pain. It does nothing to help it.

We need to realize that systemic sins are also sins that we need to repent from too. The homosexual needs to repent of his or her sins, but so does the family and community from which s/he comes. "As we see all the time at Harvest USA, one of the cornerstones of gay ideology is the fact that they feel religious people (or "fundamentalists," to the religious gay or lesbian) don't understand and are out to negate them. To the extent that we have conflict with them, Christians are affirming their worldview. If we are to walk in their shoes, we must at some level deal with their contention that they are an oppressed minority and the orthodox believer is the oppressor. After all, when we witness to our straight friends who may be fornicators, well, at least he or she does not have Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson decrying his or her lifestyle on NIGHTLINE."(David C. Rowe, Progay theology and unbelief, article at www.harvestusa.org)

The homosexual person ultimately has no right not to repent from their sin, nor do they have the right to use feelings of oppression as license to commit their sin. However, that does not mean we have not oppressed them, that their assessment of us is to be dismissed or even considered or a sin that we ourselves are guilty of either as a group, as families, as communities, or as individuals. We need to repent too. That is manifestly true, particularly given that our own Christian ministries that deal with these issues point to these perceptions, whether in the home or in the community, whether real or imagined, and the fact that these things to, in fact, reinforce the very behaviors which we know are sinful. While we do not make them sin, we do contribute to the conditions from which their sins stem. That's not an excuse. It's simply an observation. If you interpret as an excuse, I am bold enough to reply that you may have some repenting to do yourself. If that assessment is incorrect, then I apologize in advance. However, I do see folks here and in the real word (vs. the virtual world) spending a lot of time pointing fingers and condemning but not stopping to consider why homosexuals behave the way they do outside of "because they are sinners." Yes, they are. We know that, and I believe that every person, no matter how severe, actually does know they are a sinner, because that is why they run from God and do evil. We spend a lot of time pointing that out, particularly with homosexuals, but we don't stop to consider that they are gay for a reason. People do drugs...for a reason, not just because they choose to do so, but because they are in pain. People in pain have been hurt. Hurting people are wounded. Some wounds are self-inflicted, but not all of them, and even those that are self-inflicted may have been self-inflicted out of a sense of self-hatred that comes not from themselves but from the lies they have believed from others and the rejection they have or do feel from others.

Harvest USA is an ex-gay ministry from Tenth Ave. Presbyterian Church. (Tenth AVe. Pres in Philadelphia is the church that Donald Grey Barnhouse pastored, as did the late James M. Boice...one of the foremost evangelical theologians in the US...pastored, and now Dr. Ryken is pastor there...they are NOT a liberal church by ANY stretch).

Here are a few things they have to say and that we should take to heart in the way we approach homosexuals and homosexuality:

Being honest with yourself means you must be willing to admit your own daily need of the Gospel. Where are the areas of pride, fear, and unbelief that you need to honestly repent of as a parent? Lead your daughter or son in repentance. Ask Christ for the grace to admit your shortcomings, yes, your failures as a parent. Fact is, none of us had perfect parents-- and none of us will be perfect parents. Life in a fallen world means that there is indeed something wrong with everything-- so that even our most intimate relationships don’t work out like they should. Patterns of emotional distancing between a child and the same-sex parent happen early in life, long before anyone is aware of what is really going on. And patterns of manipulation and overcontrol by the opposite-sex parent are likewise subtle and not immediately apparent to anyone involved. Your teen may not be aware of what has happened and probably won’t be able to verbalize ‘what went wrong,’ but don’t be daunted by this. In fact, if she has already bought completely into the ‘just born this way’ myth, then your attempts to talk about your family dynamics may well be met with hostility and/or denial. She has a lot invested in such ‘no fault’ thinking that wants to make sure you feel OK as a parent. She may not allow you to ‘be a sinner’ in front of her-- or others. “I’m OK, you’re OK,” is a common element of gay ideology-- and indeed all pop culture today. But you must continue to invite her to the truth, and the doorway to her realizing her sin often will be your own humility and open repenting before her.


Notice the bold portion. By refusing that there at least could be something wrong with the way we act toward homosexuals and in the homes from which they come, we are buying into their worldview. We must be sinners with them. We must admit that we either have been or may at least be a contributor to the pain that has led them into their sins and that they perceive now which reinforces their sinful behaviors. We must call them to repentance, but we need to recognize our own need to repent. We need to repent with them sometimes.

Here is more:

With Dr. Stanton L. Jones, chair of the psychology department of Wheaton College, in an article entitled "The Loving Opposition - Speaking the truth in a climate of hate," Christianity Today, July 19, 1993, I affirm very strongly that homosexual acts are like every other sin. These heinous acts violate God's expressed will and distort God's creational design! The Bible is very clear that God is as sore displeased with greed, pride, spiritual lukewarmness, hate, violence, and disunity, as He is with homosexual behavior and a lack of compassion. There is a whole list of sins which God finds detestable (abominable) in Proverbs 6:16-19. Homosexuality is not mentioned here in Proverbs.

Dr. Jones then says, "We the church have the opportunity to demonstrate, in our words and in our lives, God's love for the homosexual person. If we truly love, we will act on that love. We must start by eradicating our negative responses to homosexual people...must deal with our own emotional reactions...must repudiate violence and intolerance toward persons of homosexual orientation...change the church so that it is a place where those who feel homosexual desire can be welcomed. The church must become a sanctuary where repentant men and women can share with others the sexual desires they feel and still receive prayerful support and acceptance." The church is a place of healing and restoration, not a place where people feel alienated and alone, even in their sin. Sinners must see God reaching out to them, longing to forgive and cleanse once they confess and repent!

Here is more:
The current problem in many conservative circles is that homosexuality has often been elevated to be the worst sin. The homosexual is classified as the most heinous of persons to be avoided and intolerated at all costs. Don't get me wrong, homosexuality is a most serious sin. But this pious pharisaical attitude that puts homosexuality in a category all its own can't stand.

I have had several pastors call Harvest USA over the years who have found out about someone in their congregation falling into homosexuality. A common response has been this: "If it had been an affair or sleeping with a woman, I could understand and sympathize more... but this!" Unfortunately this kind of response gives our heart away. We may be able to identify with the corresponding drives that might lead someone into heterosexual sin, but when we seek to dismiss or feel more compassion, because we can identify more readily, we betray our biblical foundations. In this case, human gut reaction and God's mind aren't the same. In my experience this kind of reaction is the biggest hindrance in the church realizing its redemptive role in helping men and women struggling with homosexuality.

There may be a need for Christians and the church as a whole to repent if they have practice this wholesale type of condemnation and rejection of people. Unfortunately most of the gay community lives with this kind of image of the average Christian. I remember visiting a neighborhood gay bar and seeing a bumper sticker someone had found. Hanging over the mirror behind the bar area, it read, "kill a queer for Christ." Is it so surprising to us that those in bondage to homosexuality have gone to great lengths to reinterpret and revise the scriptures and who, out of practical experience, see this historic kind of Christianity as uncompassionate?

We must work at avoiding unscriptural extremes. I think Gordon Dalby in his book, Healing Of The Masculine Soul put it best. He likened the discussion concerning homosexuality to a surgeon and a patient on an operating table. He said that, as a conservative, the surgeon curses the patient, slashing him ruthlessly while as a liberal, the surgeon glibly pronounces the patient "healthy" simply to spare him the pain of surgery, however necessary.

Here is more, and I think the most sad statement because it demonstrates our lack of compassion in evangelism:

At times, when we want to show compassion and mercy, we hold back because we think we are "watering down" the truth to do so. This doesn’t have to be. The real question is this: Is truth compromised when we show mercy? That depends. In some cases it happens. It certainly doesn’t have to.

The telephone call came into our office in early spring. A pastor from South Carolina was calling for advice. It seems there was to be a gay pride parade in his town in the next few weeks. The pastor was concerned with how most of the Christian community was planning to respond. The plans called for a counter demonstration by the Christians to voice their opposition to what was happening. The pastor was feeling uncomfortable with these plans.

He asked me, almost apologetically, if maybe he and some of his elders shouldn’t just go out into the crowd of gay demonstrators, talk to some of them, and perhaps share Christ with them. Here was a pastor asking me for permission to evangelize! Internally, I think he felt it might be compromising the truth to take that next step and actually speak face to face with homosexuals--and treat them with dignity. In doing so, he realized he was running uphill compared to the plans of others.

I was elated at his dilemma, especially the fact that deep down he knew a proper biblical response encompassed far more than just telling someone to "repent" from a loud speaker or with placards. I told him that, yes, he was on the right track. He should go out into that crowd and use the evangelistic method of Jesus with the Samaritan woman at the well. In that passage Jesus, through a series of questions, slowly unravels the woman’s heart and disarms her. By the time he gets to sharing the disruptive stuff with her, she is already astounded that he has even taken time to talk with a woman like her.

I encouraged the pastor to go out into that crowd, not carrying signs like "repent or perish", "kill a queer for Christ", or "the only good gay is a dead gay." (These are actual signs I’ve seen carried by Christians at counter rallies like this.) I don’t know about you as you read this, but that makes me ashamed as a Christian. I know you may not have personally carried a sign like that, but some of us may be guilty by our silence. We’ve let that kind of unbiblical response stand unchallenged as what Christianity is all about.

There is more a www.harvestusa.org .

 

I agree that while standing firmly on God's word that homosexuality is a sin, we should always try to remember how much we ourselves have been forgiven, or we can get smug or at least sound like it.

Here are some links to Christian ministries that reach out to homosexuals, many of them run by former homosexuals. The last one is for Christian youth struggling with the issue.

Cross Ministry

Stephen Bennett Ministries

Another Way Out

Becoming Real

 

In the meantime, this thread has been totally hijacked. Yet another one bites the dust.

 

Those are wonderful links.

I have known Tim Wilkins with Cross Ministries for many years. He was a pastoral intern at Calvary Baptist Church, a postion I also served in later on myself, and was also my grandparents' pastor at Southside Baptist Church here in Winston-Salem before beginning Cross Ministries. The Lord has done marvelous things in his life and through his ministry.

I will also now state for the record that I have walked in these same shoes. That is why I speak so directly about this issue. I know how gays feel because I was once one of them. Any of you that are wagging fingers, consider that I know more than any of you know that the things I have said are far, far from being excuses. They are real things, real ways people think and feel. Consider the tone of your presentation. Even now, I can feel not the desire to sin, but the feelings that "nobody understands" well up within me, because, folks, you really don't understand. &lt;y words are not meant to blame you or shirk personal responsibility from sin on anybody's part. They are meant simply to tell you that both the homosexual and the Christian walk a fragile tightrope together. We must be conscious of the way we Christians are perceived, because our behavior does often result in their feelings of continued victimization, because perceived oppression are in fact the way that victimization's feelings manifest after a person gives up and starts living in sin. Victimization of some kind and its pain is what led to their sinful desires, and those very desires are what led them astray into their sin. Let's not forget that having a desire to sin is part of what makes us sinners, and it is the thing that God seeks to change, and He does not do that by reinforcing the perceptions that gave those desires birth. We must stand firm, we must stand true, but we need, sometimes, to repent with the homosexual as well as call them to it.

 

Back to the topic in hand, as per Lady Eagle's request...

I just think the whole notion of a 'Christian state' to be anti-Baptistic. Johnv has mad this excellent point but no-one as yet responded to it. As this is a Baptist-only forum, I would have thought that this point woud be absolutely fundamentalto all of us who call ourselves Baptist

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

I like ole Johnv's stand----and I'm not in any hurry to load my wagon and hitch the mule and point him toward the Carolina's----Raleigh would be no better off being filled with Southern Baptists than Salt Lake City filled with latter day saints--

And my buddy, rsr is right----fallable humans would "make a mess of it" while tryin' to "tinker" with a Theocracy that only a infallable, inerrant God like Jesus can control!

Besides---my wife is from Alabama----and if we leave here---"Boys! We's is Alabammy bound!"

PSS---when your wagon crosses the North Carolina line---you're gonna discover that----unlike Mayberry----State troopers, Sheriff's Deputies, and city policemen all "carry" either 9mm's or .357's------how's that for being a physcial representation of what Heaven is supposed to be like??

 

Why? Both show a lack of love from the Christian community and both show a desire to keep a group in bondage (one physically, one spiritually.)

I'm not saying that to be black is sinful or that homosexual acts are not sinful. What I am saying is that both are treated incorrectly by those who claim to follow Jesus Christ.

I never said that I don't like Christians. You show me a true follower of Christ and he or she will be my brother or sister for eternity. You show me someone who claims to know Christ but doesn't honor God by showing love for his fellow man, and I don't want to spend time with that person. Seems to me he is not living up what is required of those who want to follow Christ.

Romans 1 is talking about all sin. Either way, a Christian is not meant to run away from the world. We are to engage the world by bringing them the gospel. I'm glad that someone went out of their way to tell me about Jesus Christ, and my hope is that I can daily do the same for others. Read the lepers response in II Kings 7. They say, "It is not right for us to keep all of this to ourselves." Once they found relief from their famine, they understood that they had to return to the city to let everyone else know where that relief was. So they went back and told them. We as Christians must do the same.

 

Thank you for your words, Gene. How amazing is the love and redemption of Christ!