Originally posted by LadyEagle:
On the other hand, let's look at all the kids who were brought up in Christian Fundamentalist homes who are NOT gay. I see that as an "excuse."
Sadly, too, there are a lot of kids who were brought up in Christian homes (PK's, MK's, DK's, too) who now claim to be athiests. It's an excuse.
The drug addict and alcoholic have excuses, too. There's probably not one member on this Board who doesn't have someone close to them in their family or someone they know who doesn't have a son, daughter, or other loved one with a substance abuse problem.
The root problem is sin and making choices. We all make them. And we can all make excuses or give a copout for our choices. The key is owning up and getting real with ourselves and with Jesus, not making excuses. Only when we get real with ourselves and with Jesus can He set us free.
I agree that the root problem is sin and that there are many persons from fundamentalist Christian homes that are not gay. However, like I said there are lots and lots of gay persons that came from dysfunctional fundamentalist Christian homes and communities. That's where their feelings of oppression come from and why not dealing redemptively with them only reinforces their pain. It does nothing to help it.
We need to realize that systemic sins are also sins that we need to repent from too. The homosexual needs to repent of his or her sins, but so does the family and community from which s/he comes. "As we see all the time at Harvest USA, one of the cornerstones of gay ideology is the fact that they feel religious people (or "fundamentalists," to the religious gay or lesbian) don't understand and are out to negate them. To the extent that we have conflict with them, Christians are affirming their worldview. If we are to walk in their shoes, we must at some level deal with their contention that they are an oppressed minority and the orthodox believer is the oppressor. After all, when we witness to our straight friends who may be fornicators, well, at least he or she does not have Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson decrying his or her lifestyle on NIGHTLINE."(David C. Rowe, Progay theology and unbelief, article at
www.harvestusa.org)
The homosexual person ultimately has no right not to repent from their sin, nor do they have the right to use feelings of oppression as license to commit their sin. However, that does not mean we have not oppressed them, that their assessment of us is to be dismissed or even considered or a sin that we ourselves are guilty of either as a group, as families, as communities, or as individuals. We need to repent too. That is manifestly true, particularly given that our own Christian ministries that deal with these issues point to these perceptions, whether in the home or in the community, whether real or imagined, and the fact that these things to, in fact, reinforce the very behaviors which we know are sinful. While we do not make them sin, we do contribute to the conditions from which their sins stem. That's not an excuse. It's simply an observation. If you interpret as an excuse, I am bold enough to reply that you may have some repenting to do yourself. If that assessment is incorrect, then I apologize in advance. However, I do see folks here and in the real word (vs. the virtual world) spending a lot of time pointing fingers and condemning but not stopping to consider why homosexuals behave the way they do outside of "because they are sinners." Yes, they are. We know that, and I believe that every person, no matter how severe, actually does know they are a sinner, because that is why they run from God and do evil. We spend a lot of time pointing that out, particularly with homosexuals, but we don't stop to consider that they are gay for a reason. People do drugs...for a reason, not just because they choose to do so, but because they are in pain. People in pain have been hurt. Hurting people are wounded. Some wounds are self-inflicted, but not all of them, and even those that are self-inflicted may have been self-inflicted out of a sense of self-hatred that comes not from themselves but from the lies they have believed from others and the rejection they have or do feel from others.
Harvest USA is an ex-gay ministry from Tenth Ave. Presbyterian Church. (Tenth AVe. Pres in Philadelphia is the church that Donald Grey Barnhouse pastored, as did the late James M. Boice...one of the foremost evangelical theologians in the US...pastored, and now Dr. Ryken is pastor there...they are NOT a liberal church by ANY stretch).
Here are a few things they have to say and that we should take to heart in the way we approach homosexuals and homosexuality:
Being honest with yourself means you must be willing to admit your own daily need of the Gospel. Where are the areas of pride, fear, and unbelief that you need to honestly repent of as a parent? Lead your daughter or son in repentance. Ask Christ for the grace to admit your shortcomings, yes, your failures as a parent.
Fact is, none of us had perfect parents-- and none of us will be perfect parents. Life in a fallen world means that there is indeed something wrong with everything-- so that even our most intimate relationships don’t work out like they should. Patterns of emotional distancing between a child and the same-sex parent happen early in life, long before anyone is aware of what is really going on. And patterns of manipulation and overcontrol by the opposite-sex parent are likewise subtle and not immediately apparent to anyone involved. Your teen may not be aware of what has happened and probably won’t be able to verbalize ‘what went wrong,’ but don’t be daunted by this. In fact, if she has already bought completely into the ‘just born this way’ myth, then your attempts to talk about your family dynamics may well be met with hostility and/or denial. She has a lot invested in such ‘no fault’ thinking that wants to make sure you feel OK as a parent.
She may not allow you to ‘be a sinner’ in front of her-- or others. “I’m OK, you’re OK,” is a common element of gay ideology-- and indeed all pop culture today. But you must continue to invite her to the truth, and the doorway to her realizing her sin often will be your own humility and open repenting before her.
Notice the bold portion. By refusing that there at least could be something wrong with the way we act toward homosexuals and in the homes from which they come, we are buying into their worldview. We must be sinners with them. We must admit that we either have been or may at least be a contributor to the pain that has led them into their sins and that they perceive now which reinforces their sinful behaviors. We must call them to repentance, but we need to recognize our own need to repent. We need to repent
with them sometimes.
Here is more:
With Dr. Stanton L. Jones, chair of the psychology department of Wheaton College, in an article entitled "The Loving Opposition - Speaking the truth in a climate of hate," Christianity Today, July 19, 1993, I affirm very strongly that homosexual acts are like every other sin. These heinous acts violate God's expressed will and distort God's creational design! The Bible is very clear that God is as sore displeased with greed, pride, spiritual lukewarmness, hate, violence, and disunity, as He is with homosexual behavior and a lack of compassion. There is a whole list of sins which God finds detestable (abominable) in Proverbs 6:16-19. Homosexuality is not mentioned here in Proverbs.
Dr. Jones then says, "We the church have the opportunity to demonstrate, in our words and in our lives, God's love for the homosexual person. If we truly love, we will act on that love. We must start by eradicating our negative responses to homosexual people...must deal with our own emotional reactions...must repudiate violence and intolerance toward persons of homosexual orientation...change the church so that it is a place where those who feel homosexual desire can be welcomed. The church must become a sanctuary where repentant men and women can share with others the sexual desires they feel and still receive prayerful support and acceptance." The church is a place of healing and restoration, not a place where people feel alienated and alone, even in their sin. Sinners must see God reaching out to them, longing to forgive and cleanse once they confess and repent!
Here is more:
The current problem in many conservative circles is that homosexuality has often been elevated to be the worst sin. The homosexual is classified as the most heinous of persons to be avoided and intolerated at all costs. Don't get me wrong, homosexuality is a most serious sin. But this pious pharisaical attitude that puts homosexuality in a category all its own can't stand.
I have had several pastors call Harvest USA over the years who have found out about someone in their congregation falling into homosexuality. A common response has been this: "If it had been an affair or sleeping with a woman, I could understand and sympathize more... but this!" Unfortunately this kind of response gives our heart away. We may be able to identify with the corresponding drives that might lead someone into heterosexual sin, but when we seek to dismiss or feel more compassion, because we can identify more readily, we betray our biblical foundations. In this case, human gut reaction and God's mind aren't the same. In my experience this kind of reaction is the biggest hindrance in the church realizing its redemptive role in helping men and women struggling with homosexuality.
There may be a need for Christians and the church as a whole to repent if they have practice this wholesale type of condemnation and rejection of people. Unfortunately most of the gay community lives with this kind of image of the average Christian. I remember visiting a neighborhood gay bar and seeing a bumper sticker someone had found. Hanging over the mirror behind the bar area, it read, "kill a queer for Christ." Is it so surprising to us that those in bondage to homosexuality have gone to great lengths to reinterpret and revise the scriptures and who, out of practical experience, see this historic kind of Christianity as uncompassionate?
We must work at avoiding unscriptural extremes. I think Gordon Dalby in his book, Healing Of The Masculine Soul put it best. He likened the discussion concerning homosexuality to a surgeon and a patient on an operating table. He said that, as a conservative, the surgeon curses the patient, slashing him ruthlessly while as a liberal, the surgeon glibly pronounces the patient "healthy" simply to spare him the pain of surgery, however necessary.
Here is more, and I think the most sad statement because it demonstrates our lack of compassion in evangelism:
At times, when we want to show compassion and mercy, we hold back because we think we are "watering down" the truth to do so. This doesn’t have to be. The real question is this: Is truth compromised when we show mercy? That depends. In some cases it happens. It certainly doesn’t have to.
The telephone call came into our office in early spring. A pastor from South Carolina was calling for advice. It seems there was to be a gay pride parade in his town in the next few weeks. The pastor was concerned with how most of the Christian community was planning to respond. The plans called for a counter demonstration by the Christians to voice their opposition to what was happening. The pastor was feeling uncomfortable with these plans.
He asked me, almost apologetically, if maybe he and some of his elders shouldn’t just go out into the crowd of gay demonstrators, talk to some of them, and perhaps share Christ with them. Here was a pastor asking me for permission to evangelize! Internally, I think he felt it might be compromising the truth to take that next step and actually speak face to face with homosexuals--and treat them with dignity. In doing so, he realized he was running uphill compared to the plans of others.
I was elated at his dilemma, especially the fact that deep down he knew a proper biblical response encompassed far more than just telling someone to "repent" from a loud speaker or with placards. I told him that, yes, he was on the right track. He should go out into that crowd and use the evangelistic method of Jesus with the Samaritan woman at the well. In that passage Jesus, through a series of questions, slowly unravels the woman’s heart and disarms her. By the time he gets to sharing the disruptive stuff with her, she is already astounded that he has even taken time to talk with a woman like her.
I encouraged the pastor to go out into that crowd, not carrying signs like "repent or perish", "kill a queer for Christ", or "the only good gay is a dead gay." (These are actual signs I’ve seen carried by Christians at counter rallies like this.) I don’t know about you as you read this, but that makes me ashamed as a Christian. I know you may not have personally carried a sign like that, but some of us may be guilty by our silence. We’ve let that kind of unbiblical response stand unchallenged as what Christianity is all about.
There is more a
www.harvestusa.org .
