Context, context!
First of all, this is Job speaking, not God. Remember, Job did not know what was happening - he never knew about Satan's part in this.
There is nothing to show that God creates or causes evil. How would God do this since God doesn't sin?
Maybe we need to be more basic: what is evil?
Evil is not a force swirling around out there. Evil results from sinful actions.
Cause verses Allows
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Oct 18, 2009.
Page 2 of 9
-
Job knows exactly what was happening and it was "bad", not "good". And Job speaks truth to his wife as he states "What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? " And "God's Word" then declares that what Job has said thus far including what he just said to his dear wife is indeed a "righteous " statement......"In all this did not Job sin with his lips."
Maybe we do need to clarify what "evil" is. Is it a "good" thing? No, then it must be a "bad" thing. Is disasters that kill and destroy a "good" thing? No, they are "bad" things.
Tell me what "judgment" God was bringing upon Job? God says first off.... Job 1:1¶There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
You keep saying that these clamities are a result of God's judgment on sin. The scripture states that God thought very highly of Job and God was not bringing disaster to Job because of any "judgment".
Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
Job 1:22¶In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.
What is this? Job has thus far said that it was the Lord who has brought disaster upon him and it was the Lord who was taking away His protection and blessing. Yet, this is not seen as charging God "foolishly".
Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
What's this? God moving against Job without a cause to destroy him!
What about "judgment"?
:jesus: -
-
Do you think that every bad thing that happens to you is God doing it? Or God allowing it?
Also, now we are talking about bad things happening, like losing people to death and illness. We were talking before about acts of sin. -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
God said He had no cause to destroy Job. Notice the scripture says "God is the one doing the destroying.
Here it is again....
Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
God doing the destroying and for no cause on Job's part.
God destroying.
For no fault of Job's.
So does the "God destroying always for judgment" theory of yours stand up? I don't think it has.
:jesus: -
:jesus: -
Who planned it?
If God did not plan Jesus death then who planned mankind's redemption? Satan? The Jews who cried crucify Him? The Romans?
Do you believe God looked down the corrador of time and said to Himself "Oh look! They are going to kill my Son! Well, I will just make Him a sacrifice for sin then. That'll fix em! I'll have the last word on that"?
:jesus: -
-
Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
You are ignoring the text Marcia. God initiated this destruction of Job and it was not due to any "judgment". You say it was a "test" for Job, I agree! This doesn't somehow take away from the fact that this "destroying", which you say is not "evil", has come from God and has come without cause concerning Job's actions.
:godisgood: -
Even if God initiated it (which I still say is debatable) this in no way shows that God sins, causes sin, or leads men to sin. -
:jesus: -
You had presented a commentary that said "evil" is a wrong translation. that it should be rightly translated as "disaster" in Isaiah 45.
Here in Job, the same Hebrew word "ra" is also translated as "evil" in the KJV as well as other contemporary translations. The commentator for some reason believes that "ra" should be "calamity" instead of "evil" and I am just assuming that he would say the same about Job thinking this somehow changes the context of the text, which it does not.
Job has lost his children, his servants and his wealth (chp 1) and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
Job is a fantastic example of the sovereignty of God in all things even controling the evil that comes upon men, even good men like Job.
Job never once mentions Satan causing any of his pain and suffering. He sees all that happens to him as being from God alone. Whether it be blessings or evil. Job recognizes the sovereignty of the LORD and we should learn this great truth from what God has done to Job.
Yes, God uses Satan to carry out these evils, but Satan is God's tool under God's command for God's purposes and to reveal God's power and glory.
:jesus: -
I didn't say Job sinned! -
J -
I had asked the question concerning Pilate. Pilate had the power to save Jesus from the crowd. Pilate decided to "allow" the crowd to kill Jesus. Did Pilate sin in doing so? Or was he innocent? Did Pilate "cause" Jesus death or did he "allow" Jesus' death? And what would be the difference seeing Pilate had the power and the last word on the matter?
:godisgood: -
I'm siding with Job. Are you siding with Job's friends and wife?
Shall we receive good from the LORD and not evil also?
:jesus: -
Job is saying 'I did not sin for this evil and yet this evil has come from God'. Job's friends say it is a judgment for sin Job must have committed.
What do you think? Who do you side with?
:jesus: -
God didn't kill them; Satan did. Yes, God gave Satan permission but God did not do this directly. However, even if God were to do this, it would not be a sin. I don't see how this relates to God leading men to sin.
In other OT events, God does strike down people as judgment. This was how people saw it then - but Job is a special case to show us Job's faith.
He did not make me an astrologer; He did not make me decide to do the bad things I did - I did all those on my own.
You are talking about 2 different things here:
1. Calamities that befall us (and these vary - some in the OT were judgments, although for Job it was a testing); some we don't know why they happened
2. People sinning
God does not lead people to sin. -
Job says it was God bringing evil upon him. Is this Job not knowing and making a false analysis of the situation? The scripture says that what Job said to his wife and friends, which was recorded for us to read [ Job 1:22¶In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.] ,was no foolish charge against God, even though Job had said it was evil sent from God.
James says God does not tempt any man to sin. So the account of Job cannot be God testing Job to see if Job will sin (curse God, stop trusting in Him).
It must be something else. How about this? How about it being God wanting Job and us to know His sovereign authority over every thing, including evil that comes upon us, that His hand is commanding the angels, both good and bad to do His will and make His power and glory known?
How about letting Job's words stand true, "What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
I don't see any evidence in the scripture that says this was a test for Job's faith from God. It is obvious it was a very trying time for Job and it could be said that God was tempering Job's faith, but I don't see any testing which would be tempting Job to sin.
:jesus:
Page 2 of 9