church of Christ

Marcia,

I was almost same samilar in your shoe of my testimony of salvation.

I was a Lutheran. Also, I was baptism as infant baby at Lutheran church. No one witness me how to be saved while myself was a Lutheran as grew up. I did know Jesus, when I looked at the picture of Jesus hang on wall at Lutheran church when I was age 3. I learned that Jesus rose on Easter when I was age around 7 or 8. I did believe in Jesus with my heart since I was age 7 or 8. I attended Confirmation class at Lutheran School for the Deaf in Detroit, when I was age 12. I learned in confirmation class so FAST. I was a top student in the confirmation class. I got so many A's on tests. I understood them so well. During in the confirmation class, pastor did taught us about baptism. He said that baptism now do saves us as he quoted 1 Peter 3:21. I thought pastor was correct on 1 Peter 3:21 that baptism saved us. Years later when I attended baptist church in Rochester, NY. They told me of 1 Peter 3:21 is a 'symbol' or 'type'. Therefore, I agreed with them on 1 Peter 3:21. Anyway, Pastor did mentioned us of water baptism with the picture of bowl with water on wood puplit uses for infant baptism. I learned from his teaching. Rarely when, he seems did mentioned on Romans 10:9-10. But, not much at all. He did mentioned on John 3:16 so well. I thought Lutheran teaching infant baptism is a truth. But, later, I found that I strong disagree with Lutheran on infant baptism, because it is unbiblical.

In 1984, I graduated Confirmation class. Then I attended Model Secondary School for the deaf in Washington D.C. Suddenly, I drafted away from the Lord so quickly. As I became forget God. Truly, during in my teen years, I did stopped believing in God for a SHORT time in year 1987.

While in high school, I love to draw picture of future things like skycrapers, houses, spaceships. Because, "Star Wars" was my favorite movie. That why I love futurisic things. I was goal to become architect during in high school.

One day, during in the very early spring of 1988. I started to wondering what will happen to the earth, America, and USSR(Russia) during in the 'Cold War' era in the future, and what will happen at the end of the world. One day, my mind appeared, I remembered of my old confirmation notebook, want to look at list of books in Bible, which book tells the future. It told me that book named Revelation, which tell the details of future things. Then, I put confirmation notebook away. And I started to read Revelation in "Good News Bible"(Today's English Version). Guess what? I never forget in late of April 1988, on one night, I read throughout WHOLE Revelation for 4 hours!!! But I was overwhlemed it, I do not understand them. It was too hard for me to read and understand. But I do not give up.

The next day, I went to vocational school, in drafting class. I did talked with an intepreter, she is a Christian and baptist. She uses KJV in the class. I asked her, lot of questions on Revelation. She taught me alot on end times. I learned from her on 'rapture', 'tribulation period', 'Israel', 'Russia', Ezekiel 38 and 39, 666, antichrist, wrath, Second coming, millennial, great white throne, earth will be burned, new earth and New jerusalem, etc.... Also, she did mentioned me of Hal Lindsey and Jack Van Impe too. I did read many Hal Lindsey book. I did purchased Hal Lindsey's book- "The Rapture". But, honest, it was overwhelmed me, I do not understand it. Hal Lindsey, himself is pretrib.

But, I was not give up on Revelation of Bible. I have been reading throughout Revelation again and again many times. I started to understand them by little bit to bit.

This post is already long. I better stop. I will continue in next post.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

DeafPostTrib, I do not see the similarities in your story to mine. I am not sure what the point of that is, but I don't have time to read such long posts. Sorry.

 

Let's continue.

One day in August 14, 1988. My old deaf friend took me to deaf camp hosted by Assembly of God. One night, during the service. I was not pay attention to the preacher's sermon during the service. I was chatted with my old friend during preaching same time. When at the closing of service. There was invitation. I looked at three different ways of prayer. Some deaf were waving with their hands up in the air(speaking with tongues), some deaf were pray with sign, some deaf were pray with close eyes and mouth, say nothing. So, I decided to bow down and pray with close eyes and moputh, say nothing for about 5 minutes. Then after I finished prayer. My another old deaf friend asked me, "Are you now feeling better?" I said to her, "Well, mmmm, yes I feeling betetr now." But it was not true. I was just make up myself talked to her.

Later on Wednesday night August 17, 1988, I was in my bedroom at parent's house. While I was continue read and studying Revelation in TEV(Today's English Version). I was so thrilled eager cannot wait for Second Coming, and looking forward for new earth and New Jerusalem, and also see Jesus too. But, I was so afraid, not want go to the lake of fire, to miss new earth, New Jerusalem, and also Jesus too. So, I bow down and pray talked to Jesus with sign myself at 11 pm for about 30 minutes. I told to Jesus in sign, that I do not want go to lake of fire, not want to miss new earth, New Jerusalem, and also miss jesus too. I asked Jesus to wash all my sins away by His blood. (I learned from Lutheran doctrine on blood of Christ). I told Jesus to come in my heart. When after I finished my prayer at around 11:35 pm. I got real peaceful joyful in my heart. Then, I went to bed.

The next day on August 18, 1988. I took driver lincense test. I got passed it. I believed that Rev. 1:3 tells me, it promises that if I reading this book of Revelation, I will receive blessing from God. I believed that I did received blessing from God by read Revelation in the Bible.

After I prayed to Jesus on August 17, 1988. I was still baby Christian. I still attend Lutheran church, where my parents attend. I was not growing in the Lord yet. I was still sinning lot while in my senior year.

In 1989, I graduated high school. Then, I attended deaf college in Rochester, NY. One day, I met new deaf friend, himself a baptist(he is Independent Fundamental Baptist). he invited me attend baptist church in Rochester, NY. During in the autumn, I learned God's Word, SO FAST! I was so eager serve the Lord. in November, 1989, I was baptized, a little over a year after I prayed to Jesus.

Also, little bit backward time earlier. During in the late of September, when I was with Christians in the dormitory in the bedroom. I told them, "I want to be saved now." Then, then they told me, to bow down now. Then suddenly they reminded me of my experience prayer with Jesus back in August 17, 1988. I told them, that I did remembered of my prayer with jesus that, I did asked Jesus to came into my heart to be saved. Finally I was understand of salvation.

Now back to baptism experience. In November 1989, i got baptized by deaf pastor at baptist church. During in my baptism. To be honest with you, I GOT filled with the Holy Spirit within my heart while the moment right after I got baptized! Honest, no kidding, I am serious.

Throughout years as I have been reading through books, websites, and forums, there are much of debates about baptism relates with Holy Spirit and salvation issue.

For me, in my own experinece with honest. I did actually got the REAL filled with the Holy Spirit into my heart just immediately right after I got baptized.

I believe that Acts 2:38 as Peter said, ".....and ye shall RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Ghost." My understanding of Acts 2:38 means, when once you got baptized, at the same time, the Holy Spirit comes into person- saved. As what Acts 2:38 according to my own experience of baptism in November 1989.

Marcia,

I know many people say, they did accepted Jesus Christ, but did not get baptized till few years later. Understand, God is omniscience, means God knows future. God already KNEW that person who did asked Jesus to be saved, but not yet get baptized till several years later-before the creation.

I believe that, anyone who did actual asked Jesus to be saved, but not yet get baptize till several years later, during in their period, the Holy Spirit did sealed in their hearts of "promise"- (Eph. 1:13), it means that the Holy Spirit is HOLDING their souls of salvation till they get baptized.

I better stop. This post is already long. I better make another post. To be continued.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Let's continue.

But, Ephesians 1:13 does not mean that a person is already guaranteed saved as automatically at once for good all the way till death or rapture, already have ETERNAL LIFE, that is so called, "Eternal Security" as what many Baptists cited Eph. 1:13.

Eph. 1:13-14 give us a picture that we are "engaged" with Jesus Christ, that mean, we are NOT yet marry to Jesus TILL we die or He comes(Revelation chapter 19).

Being 'engaged' is just a beginning of Christian journey life. Just like we are just already enter into the "START LINE" race according Matt. 7:13-14.

Look, there are many people are being engaged already. But, that does not mean that they will be guaranteed will be marry for SURE yet. Mostly of them are end up as engaged in the midst of their goal toward wedding day. They separated for good.

Same idea with Eph. 1:13-14.

****In Eph. 4:30 warns us, DO NOT grieve the Holy Spirit while we are currently sealed-why? because of "unto the 'Day of REDEMPTION'. "

Right now, alive saints are being sealed by the Holy Spirit, but they are not yet received their redemption(salvation of their souls), because they are not yet die, or Christ not yet come.

"sealed by the Holy Spirit" of Eph. 1:13-14 is like as down payment hold wait til all are pay off.

For example, when you buy a car. First, you get loan from the bank, and make agreement with the agent, make promise to down payment like as $150 monthly till all are pay off then car become yours for good. But, in the midst period. If suppose you missed or fail to pay montly bill on the car. Then, the bank would take car AWAY from you. You will lost the car forever!!! Same common sense, if you sinning against the Holy Spirit, then Holy Spirit would loose you off for good just like as in John 15:4-6 and Romans 11:19-23. That means you are NO longer belong to Jesus! What happen to your soul? Your soul would be doomed for everl;asting fire in the lake of fire, IF you continue in sins all the way to death(physical) or "thief in the night" at Lord's coming.

Very, very clear that Eph. 1:13-14; and 4:30 are conditional!

In my belief, when a person being baptized, immediately the Holy Spirit comes into person's soul and sealed at same time is saved according Acts 2:38.

That's all folks!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

eightball,

I am aware that, there are three different kinds of groups of 'Church of Christ'. Myself is not a Church of Christ. Of course, there are divisions among Church of Christ.

BUT, you should be already aware that there are TONS of divisions among Baptist churches in America today. Because of their disagreements on many issues, standards, and doctrine matters.

There are so many different religions in the world. There is NO perfect religion in the world. Only we have a pure truth book - Bible. That we all need the answers of everything. Yet, there are so MANY Christians are still disagree each other upon God's Word. Why?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

You said, "I am not against baptism."

Amen. Agreed.

You said, "We are told to be baptized so we should."

Amen. Agreed.

But, you says,

"Yes I THINK(emphasis mine) a person will go to heaven if they are not baptized."

Please scripture. I am talking about PRESENT time of the New Testament Period -post resurrection of Christ.

By the way, what about near death in dying bed? Is a person saved by near death without having baptized, still go to heaven?

Yes. Why? Because, God knows in dying person is sincerely within heart that person is seriously want to be saved and believe in Jesus. More importantly that, a dying person is truly saved within sincerely heart that God knows person's heart, want to be saved. That is counted as person is just as death arriving, no time for a dying person to get be baptized.

Same with a thief on the cross. Jesus knew thief's heart is sincerely enough that he wanted to be saved while he was dying on the cross same time. So, therefore, Christ told him, that he is going to be with Him in the paradise today. No way, that a Thief can get down off the cross and then to get baptized. Because, that was Roman's execution policy. Importantly, that Jesus knew thief's heart is serious enough wanted to be saved. That was counted him as saved.

Also, thief on the cross with Jesus was still under the Old Testament or covenant economy. The New Testament or covenant was become offically right after Christ sacrificed his blood, and also his resurrection too.

Also, baptism was not yet effect under the Old Testament or covenant economy. Because, Christ had to came down to earth to reveal people, who he is, and what the purpose of gospel is all about according Romans 6:3-5. When once after Jesus' resurrection occured. Then, the disciples finally understood the purpose of the gospel, therefore, Christ beguns given his great commission to them (Matt. 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16, and Acts 1:8). So, therefore the New Testament Period beguns.

During in the Old Testament time, saints were saved by their faith and obedience, while the baptism was not yet exist.

Yet, both Old Testament and New Testament have the same conditional salvation by base upon their faith with obedience, nothing new else.

See? My point is.

And finally, your third sentence on person, who refuse to be baptized, are not understanding why they should be baptized or they are not truly saved.

Jesus said in Matthew 10:37-39, if anyone who love father or mother or family more than Jesus, it is not worthy to him. Also, if anyone who not willing to take up the cross, and to follow Him, is not worthy to him. And finally, if anyone want to save his life(flesh), shall lose eternal life.

My understanding of this passage is speaking of forsake family, world, come and to take up the cross and follow Christ. That means, a person must yield up life 100% to Christ with faith, and follow Christ 100% the way.

I heard in many cases of Jews of present day. When a Jewish recently convert to Christian, whenh Jewish's parents heard it, they became upset and angry with son/daughter, then kick person out of the family, no longer belong to family forever. That is a risky. Also, I hgeard few cases of young Christians like in early teen's or kid, who want to be baptized. When they asked parents for their permission to be baptized. Parents did told them NO. So, a child told pastor or members that a child cannot to be baptized, because of obey parents's permission. Child have to be patience and wait when the right time to come. BUT, never know what if a child becomes teen or adult in latter years, probably might never been baptize all the way till death, then person is remain no longer to worth for Christ's sake.


Jewish and any child or teens have to be gut inside their stomach that they have to surrender to Christ completely with obedience depsite as what parents have told them, they willing to loss their love ones, while obey Christ, shall save their souls for eternal life by obedience.

Being Christian and be baptized being costly their life and soul as worthy for obedience. To receive eternal life.

See? My point.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

annsni,

I like KJV of Eph.1:14 explains more clear.

In KJV of Eph. 1:14 of KJV says: "Which is the earnest of our inheritance UNTIL the "REDEMPTION" of the purchased posession, unto the praise of his glory."

Word, 'earnest' means down payment or deposit.

Repeat, I have to explain you the example of earnest. When you are purchase a car. You have to make agreement deal with a agent by make deposit or down payment with a loan money fro the bank, then the agent gives you a key to you, and you can have the car and drive it home. BUT, this car is NOT offically belong to you 100% completely, till you get all pay off within 3 or 4 years of monthly payments. By in the midst of the period under your agreement with the agent and the bank, you make a missed or failed to pay down a month or two months behind, then, the bank have the right to take your car AWAY from you, and lose it forever!

Same common sense as the Holy Spirit is currently sealed in our souls while we still alive, our real final redemption will not be arrived till we die(physical) or Lord comes. Unless if we endure all the way to the end, then shall be saved accord to Matt. 10:22; and Matt. 24:13. Or, otherwise, if we fail to endure in the midst of our life, by the time we die at the end, then we shall NOT be saved!

That is plain and truth as what God's Words saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

"

 

This is true except that the one who pays the earnest is God. We do not pay the earnest, He does. It is God's downpayment until the day we are redeemed and then He pays us in full with eternal life. God will not default on His payment the way that we might. This is why our salvation is secure.

 

Under most Church of Christ viewpoints, that person would not be saved.

It is very simple in Church of Christ circles: if you are believer, but for whatever reason you fail to be baptized, and you die, it does not matter how "serious" your faith was; your faith counts for nothing -- you go to Hell.

The resurrection did not seal the New Covenant.

Christ's death sealed the New Covenant. That is what He said in Luke 22 and Matthew 26. Luke 22:20 says "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, even that which is poured out for you" (ASV).

That is why when Jesus Christ shed His lifeblood and died, the curtain of the innermost chamber of the Temple tore. Matthew 27:52 reports "the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom" (ASV), that is, from God's direction down.

Per John 19, Jesus Christ died before His neighbors. The thief was saved under the New Covenant.

Acts 10:43 expressly says of Jesus Christ “everyone that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins” (ASV|ESV|ASV).

 

to everyone,

I will reply back to you all on Sunday or next week, when after I return back while I am out of town tomorrow.

By the way, you saying, 'earnest' is God's or Holy Spirit's responsiblity, not ours. You are partially correct.

Notice in ****Eph. 4:30 warns us, that we DO NOT grieve the Holy Spirit, while we are currently sealed with the Holy Spirit, why? because of UNTIL the day of "REDEMPTION" to be arrived at Lord's coming. This means that, we are warned, not to be sinning against the Holy Spirit, while He is dwelling in us at same time, if we continue sinning against the Holy Spirit all the way till our death(physical) or Lord comes, then, our soul would NOT be redemption! That means, we would be no longer belong to Lord's if we continue sinning all the time throughout our lifetime till death. Then, we would be end up in the lake of fire, and our names would be removed(blot out) from the lake of fire - Rev. 3:5.

We must obey to the Holy Spirit while he is seal in our souls all the times till we die or Lord comes. Clear, Eph. 4:30 is conditional with warning.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Ann,

Is it okay to grieve the Holy Spirit long as while He dwells in us?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

WOW! Are you serious? If the passage says what it says, then it cannot say what it says -- that is your premise. So I guess it means that we should not believe the passage? That strategy has been used before. Is that your strategy?[/quote]This passage says that grace saves us as well as "THE FAITH", this faith cannot be subjective because it is not of yourselves! Some like to say that the grace is God's but the faith is man's, yet the passage does not make that distinction. many assume it is their faith refered to in this passage. ...[/quote]Huh? What are you talking about?

I do not see those words, but I do see the words "not of works, lest anyone should boast" if we follow the NKJV.

I also do not see the words "the faith." I see simply "faith."

The order is specified in Ephesians 2:8-10

“for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may |boast himselfe. For |in Christ Jesus, God made us new people| unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (ESV|GenB|ICB|KJV).​

You say that faith and works secure salvation, and without works, a person will not be saved through faith. This requires
1) we are not saved by faith "not a result of works,"
2) we are saved "as a result of works,"
3) works precede us being "saved through faith."
Obviously, your view is discordant with this passage.

Paul elsewhere said “‘Believe on the Lord Jesus|, and you will be saved’” (ASV|NASB) at Acts 16:31. You deny that a believer on Jesus Christ as Lord will be saved if s/he fails to be baptized. Acts 10:43 expressly says of Jesus Christ "everyone that believeth on him receives remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV). This is a passage you have not dealt with, but perhaps you have some similar rationale where we cannot believe what it says.

As for me, I will just believe the Bible, and accept that you are mistaken.

 

I know I was saved in late December, 1990. It was a profound and life-changing experience when I encountered the true Christ and knew the Holy Spirit indwelt me at that moment. I saw I had been on a path against God, and I also realized that before that moment, if something had happened to me, I would have been eternally separated from God. Yet I was not baptized, for various reasons, until Feb. of 1992.

If I had died before Feb. 1992, I would have gone to heaven because I was saved in Dec., 1990, by grace through faith.

Someone else has already given examples of people indwelt by the Holy Spirit and saved before baptism.

 

Saved by grace through faith.

Grace allows us to be saved through faith. They come together and are a package deal.