church of Christ

They dont let me take communion, they expect me to take communion. In there eye's, if you have been baptized, you are to take communion, no exceptions. I know when I was growing up, I actually heard people taking about seeing people not taking communion and they went to them and asked them why they had not taken it.

 

HP: Possibly you misunderstand double predestination Ann. It simply means that God predestines some to be damned and some to be saved, not that He predestines people twice.

 

You have to believe in Predestination because its in the bible, we cant just pick and chose what we believe

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers. (30) But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, those He also justified. And whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Eph 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ; (4) according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (5) having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, (6) to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He has made us accepted in the One having been loved. (7) In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace, (8) which He caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and understanding; (9) having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, (10) for an administration of the fullness of times, to head up all things in Christ, both the things in Heaven, and the things on earth, even in Him, (11) in whom also we have been chosen to an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His own will, (12) for us to be to the praise of His glory, who previously had trusted in Christ; (13) in whom also you, hearing the Word of Truth, the gospel of our salvation, in whom also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, (14) who is the earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.


Im going to explain it the way that I believe it to be.

Predestination is "Gods Knowledge" it is what he knows, he is God

Free Will is "What Mankind Has" its just that God already knows what answer we will give before we give it. We are not puppets, HE IS GOD and knows all things even before they happen. Why is that so hard to comprehend for some.

 

HP: What do you mean you were going there without Him? Did He not predestine you from the beginning? Are you suggesting that God predestined you to one end but for a while you were not on God’s planned route? Who are you to act as if though you, by some choice of your own or your own will, could possibly have ever been on any other track than the one predestined by God? Are you saying that for a while you were in control of a destiny that you claim an Omnipotent God was in total control of?

Do you start to see the problem trying to hold onto a system of necessity in one hand and yet give lip service to some facsimile of choice or self-direction? They are not two sides of the same coin, and the absurdity is not the results of anything to do with an Omnipotent God’s ways being higher than ours, although His ways are indeed higher than ours. You are trying to embrace two opposing systems of thought and then lay the absurdity of the conflict at the feet of God, claiming His ways are higher than our ways as if though the absurdity belongs to God. The absurdity lies in the necessitated system you are embracing in one hand while trying to allow for freedom in the other.

 

And you call yourself a Baptist? You are the first Baptist I've ever heard of who believes this (that water baptism is essential for salvation).

 

Actually God chooses us "in Christ". Those in Christ are chosen. Those who put their faith in Christ are the chosen.


Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

Sorry, but this sort of sophistry does not alleviate the explicit statements of Scripture.

You deny that believers will be saved without arising from baptism. Scripture never states any such thing. Nothing you quote as Scripture states that a believer who fails to be baptized faces condemnation. It does not `trump' explicit statements of Scripture.

I will quote those passages again below after this quote.

Scripture says what it says.

Ephesians 2:8-10 “for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may |boast himselfe. For |in Christ Jesus, God made us new people| unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (ESV| GenB| ICB| KJV). ​

It is not complicated. We are not saved due to our works. However, after we are "saved through faith," the faith that we have in Jesus Christ as Lord will motivate us to live accordingly "unto good works."

Jesus Christ forecast the same.

John 6:28-9 says “The people asked Jesus, `What are the works God wants us to do?’ Jesus answered `The work God wants you to do is this: to believe |on him whom he hath sent” (ICB|ASV).​

When these people asked for a plurality of “works” to “do,” Jesus had just one -- belief on Him. In Paul's terminology, he does not classify "faith" as a work, which was a license given to him by the Lord. Still, the teaching is the same: a person who believes on Jesus Christ as Lord fulfills what the Lord prescribes for salvation.

There is yet another clear statement in Scripture about this: As Peter was preaching about Jesus Christ, he said

Acts 10:43b “everyone that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins” (ASV|ESV|ASV).​

You cannot teach
a) that a person can have faith on Jesus Christ as Lord, and yet
b) not be saved,
and still be `square' with these explicit statements of Scripture.

 

You teach that Scripture contradicts itself.

You make no distinction between explicit statements of God's written Word and your inferences of them.

You give more weight to `inference' of passages than explicit statements of Scripture.

Explain: how is it possible to obey Matthew 28:19-20 if we baptize non-Christians?

Explain: how is it possible that Acts 10:43 explicitly states “everyone that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins” (ASV|ESV|ASV) while you deny that those who "believeth on him" but are unbaptized will not receive remission of sins. How is this not a contradiction?

Making it appear that Scripture contradicts itself will not bolster your position. If an inference you make of a passage contradicts an explicit statement of Scripture, your inference is to be rejected.

 

Rom. 6 is not about being baptized to be saved, but about how baptism shows our identification with Christ and his death and resurrection. Col 2:12 is similar. We are not yet raised are we? This is a symbolic act.

John 3:5 says nothing of baptism.

The other verses you cited do not mean one must be baptized to be saved. They have been brought up and discussed on this forum before. I just do not have time for it.

You are not the first person to try to use these passages to teach that one must be water baptized to be saved. Ther are other baptisms. The saving baptism is the baptism in Christ and the Holy Spirit (regeneration) which comes at the moment of faith in Christ.

 

I realize that it is probably convenient to lump us all together, but that will not work.

I am the one who brought up Matthew 28:19-20. I have not suggested that "baptize them" (NCV) is anything other than water baptism.

Therefore, your comments that go on as if I am suggesting such will not be considered. I suggest you try to read each poster's posts and address us as individuals, rather than `the denominationalists on this board.'

Actually, quite the contrary!

How much more clear can it be:

Now, if no one is a disciple = Christian until after s/he arises from baptism, then we would not "baptize" = "completely submerge" disciples but non-disciples.

You can point to a whole bunch of other passages in hopes that focusing on them will sidestep this problem, but the problem still exists. It is not possible to obey this passage if no one is a Christian during baptism.

What I am most interested in is an explanation of how your view is not totally contrary to Ephesians 2:8-10 and Acts 10:43. I will repeat, and add some color for emphasis:

If there is a way for you to
1) reconcile the contradiction with these verses your position requires, and
2) do so WHILE DEALING DIRECTLY WITH THESE PASSAGES and
3) NOT trying to focus our attention away from these passages,
then you need to show it. Otherwise, it will be safe to assume that the direct contradiction between your teaching and Scripture's teaching exists.

 

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

Which passages? A true belief is saving faith, not just acknowledging Jesus as existing.