1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Colossians 2, the "nailed it to his cross", what was "it"?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by One Baptism, Jul 3, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    6,448
    Likes Received:
    1,572
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Only in your mind. I can explain it to you, and have done, but I cannot understand it for you.
     
  2. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    20
    Tell you what, consider these 16 short paragraphs (which sums up my points beautifully), and let me know specifically what you disagree with, by quotation, and why - The Signs of the Times -- Ellen G. White Writings

    I really would like your feedback on this.

    According to Daniel 9:27 KJB, Jesus, in/by His death at Calvary, would "...cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease ...", nothing else, thus as stated in the original postings.
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The fact that we are forgiven - does not mean that if we then go on to take God's name in vain - it is not a sin or we do not need forgiveness. Rather "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"

    Indeed -- if you don't sin well then... no problem.

    See Romans 6.

    See Romans 8:4-9

    Lucifer also thought that at one time. He was at that time - sinless - until...
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Paul reports the Words of Christ in 1 Cor 11 "For as often as you partake of this cup you do show the Lord's DEATH until He comes".

    It is a great blessing that Christ was raised and now is our High Priest in heaven. But being "willing to be raised" is not as great a sacrifice as being willing to die for our sins.
     
  5. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    17,518
    Likes Received:
    744
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is superstitious heresy. No one's body is sinful. The law of sin did not reside in Christ's members, and does not now. And the Person of Christ was crucified and became a curse.
     
    #45 Aaron, Jul 8, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
  6. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    17,518
    Likes Received:
    744
    Faith:
    Baptist
  7. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    17,518
    Likes Received:
    744
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I'll ask again. For whom was the law made? Was it for the righteous?
     
  8. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    6,448
    Likes Received:
    1,572
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I'm sorry, but I have no desire to do that. Mrs White was a false prophet (Deuteronomy 18:22), and I have no interest in her. The briefest flick through your link seems to indicate that she espoused salvation by works.
    You need also to consider Daniel 9:24, which tells us that the seventy 'sevens' are given 'to bring in everlasting righteousness,' but why restrict yourself to Daniel? According to Jeremiah 23:5-7, Jesus Christ is Himself 'The LORD our righteousness.'
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    20
    Heresy (superstitious, at that)? Please consider carefully the scripture [KJB] texts, and what it would mean to reject their statements, and what it means to the Gospel itself, and redemption.

    Hebrews 2:16 KJB - For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.​

    The question then is, what kind of nature do unfallen [oops. I gave it away] Heavenly angels have (who have celestial unfallen bodies-flesh; 1 Corinthians 15:35-49 KJB), as in contrast to every child, made of a woman, since the fall [sin] of Adam the first. Since Jesus, in taking upon himself, the seed of Abraham (fallen flesh) did not take the flesh nature of unfallen angels of Heaven.

    Romans 1:3 KJB - Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;​

    If it were not so, Jesus could never have "condemned sin in the flesh", being His flesh that He took upon Himself:

    Romans 8:3 KJB - For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

    (*"likeness", see Philippians 2:7; Romans 6:5; Genesis 1:26, 5:1,3, etc)​

    This is taught from beginning to ending, and drastically affects the Gospel itself, and what it means to be saved and redeemed.

    1 Peter 4:1 KJB - Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

    Hebrews 2:17 KJB - Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

    Galatians 4:4 KJB - But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

    (*Mary, not 'immaculately conceived', was a sinner (Romans 3:23 KJB, etc), having sinful flesh, in need of redemption (Luke 2:38 KJB, etc), and the flesh body of mankind which was prepared for the Son of God (Hebrews 10:5,7,9; Psalms 40:7-8 KJB), was made under the law of fleshy heredity (Matthew 1:1-18, "son of David, the son of Abraham"; Luke 3:23-38, "[son of] Adam" KJB.)
    Romans 5:19 KJB - For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.​

    Read that Romans 5:19 KJB text carefully, in all its powerful and redemptive meaning for each one of us.
     
  10. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    20
    ...continued ...

    To be born with sinful (fallen) flesh, is not to be born with guilt of sin/transgression (Deuteronomy 1:39; Isaiah 7:16; Romans 9:11 KJB, etc), because sin comes through choice, 1 John 3:4 KJB.

    It is written:

    1 John 4:2 KJB - Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

    1 John 1:1 KJB - "... our hands have handled, of the Word of life."

    1 John 4:3 KJB - And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    2 John 1:7 KJB - For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

    Romanism (through 'immaculate conception (of Mary)), WTS, and most of Evangelical Christianity, basically share the same false root, denying "the flesh" that Jesus specifically took upon Himself, through one theolgical position or another, such as the false teaching of the "impecabiliy' of Jesus (ie., He never could sin, nor ever had opportunity to.)

    Many are "... not discerning the Lord's body." [1 Corinthians 11:29 KJB] who had a body like "our vile body" (Philippians 3:21 KJB), yet He was without sin.

    Read carefully, consider what means in connection with the Gospel, and redemption:

    John 1:14 KJB - "And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us ..."

    1 Timothy 3:16 KJB - "... God manifest in the flesh ..."

    1 Corinthians 15:47 KJB - "... the second man is the Lord from heaven."

    Galatians 4:4 KJB - "... Son, made of a woman, made under the law,"

    Romans 1:3 KJB - "... made of the seed of David according to the flesh ..."

    1 Corinthians 15:38 KJB - "... to every seed his own body ..."

    Acts 2:30 KJB - "... of the fruit of his [David's] loins, according to the flesh ..."

    Hebrews 2:16 KJB - "... seed of Abraham ..."

    Hebrews 2:14 KJB - "... as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same ..."

    Hebrews 2:17 KJB - "... in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren ..."

    2 Corinthians 5:16 KJB - "... known Christ after the flesh ..."


    Jesus took on Himself the same fallen sinful flesh as all men born since Adam fell:

    See Matthew 1:1-25; Luke 3:23-38 KJB; "[the son] of Adam".

    Philippians 2:7 KJB - "... made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men."

    Hebrews 5:7 KJB - "... in the days of His flesh ..."

    Hebrews 4:15 KJB - "... was in all points tempted like as we are yet without sin."

    1 Corinthians 15:39 KJB - "... one kind of flesh of men ..."

    (Just eliminated the 'immaculate conception' (of Mary) heresy, in fact for Christ Jesus to marry His people He had to become one with them, that we may be "one flesh" in the marriage, See Genesis 2:23; 1 Corinthians 6:16 KJB, etc)

    Romans 9:5 KJB - "... of whom [Israrlites] as concerning the flesh Christ came ...

    Acts 2:26 KJB - "... my flesh shall rest in hope ..."

    Acts 2:31 KJB - "... neither his flesh did see corruption."

    Galatians 5:24 KJB - "... having crucified the flesh ..."

    Colossians 2:14 KJB - "... nailing it to His cross ..."

    1 Peter 4:1 KJB - "Forasmuch then as Christ has suffered for us in the flesh ..."

    1 Peter 3:18 KJB - "... being put to death in the flesh ..."

    Galatians 5:24 KJB - "... crucified with Christ ..."

    Colossians 1:22 KJB - "In the body of His flesh through death ..."

    Romans 7:4 KJB - "... by the body of Christ ..."

    Ephesians 5:30 KJB - "... members of His body, and of His flesh, and of His bones."

    Hebrews 2:10 KJB - "... new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh;"

    Romans 6:6 KJB - "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

    See also Philippians 3:21; Hebrews 10:5,10; 1 Peter 2:24; etc.

    Always remember that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit (John 3:6 KJB).

    Christ Jesus body was made of a woman (Galatians 4:4 KJB), thus inherited through the law of heredity, fallen sinful flesh as all men receive since Adam fell, but he, himself, in the 'incarnation', was of the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:31-35 KJB).

    Jesus in his spirit, was/is Holy: Isaiah 31:1, 37:23, 40:25, 41:14,16,20, 43:3,14,15. 45:11, 47:4, 48:17, 49:7, 54:5, 55:5, 60:9,14; Habakkuk 1:12, 3:3; Matthew 1:20; Mark 1:24; Luke 1:35, 2:23, 4:34; Acts 2:27, 3:14, 4:27,30, 13:35; Romans 11:16; Hebrews 7:26; 1 Peter 1:15,16 KJB.

    Thus, He had sinful fallen flesh, yet he was/is without sin, having never sinned, never chose to disobey the Father, even unto death, see Hebrews 4:15, 7:26; Exodus 12:5; Matthew 26:60, 27:4,18,19,23,24; Luke 23:4,14,15,22,41,47; John 15:10, 18:38, 19:4,6; Romans 5:19; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 2:22: 1 John 3:5; Hebrews 9:4. etc.

    It makes all the difference in the world what one believes in this, for it affects what one teaches as the Gospel, what their definition of sin will be (either existence, or choice) and how salvation/redemption happens.
     
  11. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    20
    As previously given in the original posts, the phrase, "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances ...", is not, by any scriptural [KJB] text, the 'sin debt', but is as itself says, the blotting out of the handwritten ordinances (carnal ordinances) belonging to the worldly sanctuary, as both Ephesians 2 and Hebrews 9 textual language in paralelism to the context of Colossians 2 KJB.

    Our "past" (Romans 3:25 KJB) sins indeed, are "forgiven" (Colossians 2:13 KJB), even "remitted"/in "remission", "covered" (Romans 4:7 KJB), but not yet "blotted out", which can only happen (not at Passover, neither Pentecost, but only) at the anti typical Day of Atonement, requiring a high priest, fall (10th day of the 7th month, Ethanim), the Ark of the Covenant in Heaven, as well as the Altar of Incense and its four horns.

    "Forgiven", "remitted", "covered" sins all mean the same thing, but never mean blotted out according to scripture [KJB], see for yourself:

    Psalms 32:1 KJB - [[[A Psalm] of David, Maschil.] Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

    (1A) transgression
    (1B) forgiven
    (2A) sin
    (2B) covered

    Psalms 85:2 KJB - Thou hast forgiven the iniquity of thy people, thou hast covered all their sin. Selah.

    (1A) forgiven
    (1B) iniquity
    (2A) covered
    (2B) sin
    All "forgiven" sin, all "covered" sin, can be reinstated to the sinner (before probation closes) see Matthew 18:21-35 KJB, etc.

    A simple Bible [KJB] search will reveal that covered and blotted out do not mean the same thing, see Genesis 7:19,20; Psalms 104:6,9; Exodus 33:22; Genesis 38:15; Psalms 91:4; Deuteronomy 33:12, etc.

    Line upon line ...

    Did the "covering" of the waters in the days of Noah erase the mountains, or was Moses blotted out of existence by the hand of God, or those covered by the feathers of God wiped out completely, or the harlots face gone behind the veil? Or rather, did the "covering" simply place one thing over/on top of another thing, and both remain and continue to exist, even protectively?

    The sanctuary (Psalms 77:13 KJB) is a whole system, having multiple parts to be fulfilled in their proper order, timing and season.

    The bible [KJB] throughout teaches these two major phases in regards sins, FIRST to be "covered", until such time, that in the Day of Atonement, SECONDLY (finally) to be blotted out. Demonstrations upon request.

    Jesus Christ, by His life and death, laid the Foundation, Himself the cornerstone, at the Cross, He lived the perfect Character (being both the substitute and example of the life to live), the work that His Father gave Him to finish. This was what was "finished" at Calvary. It was the beginning of His work finished, not its final end.

    See Solomon, "foundation", see Cyrus "foundation", Isaiah 28:16; Luke 6:48, 14:29; 1 Corinthians 3:11; Ephesians 2:20; etc.

    Read, John 4:34, connected to John 17:4, which is tied to John 14:1-14 KJB.

    The "mystery of God" is not yet (though almost) "finished" (Revelation 10:7 KJB).
     
  12. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    6,448
    Likes Received:
    1,572
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hebrews 8:12 (quoting Jeremiah 31:34). 'For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.' This promise is for the New Covenant, starting at Calvary.
    Unless you suppose that God suffers from dementia, how can He not remember our sins and lawless deeds unless He has blotted them out?
     
  13. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    20
    God has "books". Think with me a moment. I misplace my keys and cannot "remember" where I put them, but I had written down where I placed them, can I open the book and then know where they are?

    God has books:

    God has various "books" of records that are kept:

    Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. Exodus 32:32

    And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Exodus 32:33

    ...Thou tellest my wanderings: put thou my tears into thy bottle: [are they] not in thy book. Psalms 56:8

    ...Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them. Psalms 139:16

    And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12:1

    And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. Revelation 5:1

    And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? Revelation 5:2

    And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. Revelation 5:3

    And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. Revelation 5:4

    And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Revelation 5:5

    And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. Revelation 5:7

    And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. Revelation 5:8

    And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; Revelation 5:9

    And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and [with] other my fellowlabourers, whose names [are] in the book of life. Philippians 4:3

    He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 3:5

    And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8

    The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Revelation 17:8

    And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Revelation 20:12

    And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15

    And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 21:27

    And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:19

    Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. Psalms 69:28

    Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard [it], and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. Malachi 3:16

    I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Deuteronomy 30:19

    Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. Deuteronomy 31:28

    Also now, behold, my witness [is] in heaven, and my record [is] on high. Job 16:19

    Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth. 2 Corinthians 1:23

    For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:8

    And he spread it before me; and it [was] written within and without: and [there was] written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe. Ezekiel 2:10

    But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Ezekiel 18:24

    [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.]] Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Psalms 51:1

    Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Psalms 51:9

    Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; Acts 3:19

    For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, [yet] thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD. Jeremiah 2:22

    And cover not their iniquity, and let not their sin be blotted out from before thee: for they have provoked [thee] to anger before the builders. Nehemiah 4:5

    Yet, LORD, thou knowest all their counsel against me to slay [me]: forgive not their iniquity, neither blot out their sin from thy sight, but let them be overthrown before thee; deal [thus] with them in the time of thine anger. Jeremiah 18:23

    Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out. Psalms 109:14

    Behold, [it is] written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom, Isaiah 65:6

    Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom. Isaiah 65:7
     
  14. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    6,448
    Likes Received:
    1,572
    Faith:
    Baptist
    [Yawn] Yes, I know that God is represented in the Bible as having books. Now please deal with Hebrews 8:12.
     
  15. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    20
    Thank you for acknowledging that God keeps a written record of our sins, in heaven, in those very books, which is in addition to His knowing, in His own heart/mind.

    If you will consider my post, about the books of Heaven, and their opening and being read, if studied more closely, you will see that Hebrews 8:12, was addressed, even from the beginning, by the analogy of the keys.

    Looking, once more, Hebrews 8:11-12 KJB, is directly citing Jeremiah 31:34 KJB:

    Jeremiah 31:34 KJB - And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.​

    See the connection?

    (1) forgive their iniquity =
    (2) remember their sin no more
    As shown from the books, and from Matthew 18:21-35 KJB, etc., all reveal, that forgiven sin, which is "covered" sin, can be reinstated to the one who failed of the mercy bestowed during the time of probation/testing granted. John 10:35 KJB reveals that scripture [KJB] cannot be broken, cannot contradict itself.

    In being "covered" by the blood of Christ Jesus, entering into the New Covenant, as per Jeremiah 31 KJB, etc, our past "sins" are "forgotten" in the mind/heart of God, but they are still under the "blood", still written in those Heavenly books. They are not permanently gone, until blotted out, at the ending service on the true Day of Atonement. If they are not blotted out then, they will remain in those books to be opened and read, being uncovered, unhidden, and the one who failed of the mercy granted in the time of probation/test, will bear again all their past sins, and every sin committed since.

    The memory (remembered, of past), is a differing location than the books, both are separate records, one (the mind/heart) can forget, but since written in the book, can be known again, unless it is both forgotten, and blotted out of the books, in which case once forgotten, cannot ever be known again from the books, since it was blotted out from there too in the Day of Atonement.

    Consider Psalms 109:13-17 KJB, as partly cited previously, vs 14.

    Notice the connection in vs 14,

    (1) Let the iniquity ... be remembered &
    (2) let not the sin ... be blotted out​

    If the sins are not blotted out in the Day of Atonment (now taking place, Revelation 14:6-12 KJB, first the dead who professed (Hebrews 9:27 KJB), then at the NSL (Revelation 13, etc), the living professing) they will remain in the book, to be opened and read, then all sins (not blotted out) that were covered, are uncovered, and are openly known, and remain to be paid for by themselves, and their name will be blotted out of the book of the living.

    As a PS, the Holy 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God is central in the New Covenant, since Jesus is Israel, we, His disciples, are His children, see Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; Hebrews 2:9-18 (vs 13 specifically); Isaiah 8:8-20 (vs 18 specifically); Isaiah 56:1,8; John 10:16; Isaiah 56:2-7 (context); Exodus 31:13-17; John 14:15; Exodus 20:6; etc. KJB.
     
  16. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    6,448
    Likes Received:
    1,572
    Faith:
    Baptist

    I see a massive non sequitur. God promises to do two things: He will forgive their iniquities and remember their sins no more. He might have done the first without doing the second, but He has done them both. If I promise to send my niece a birthday card and a £5 note, it doesn't mean that the birthday card is the £5 note, and it pre-supposes that I might have sent one without sending the other.
    I'll deal with the rest later.
     
  17. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    20
    If you would read more carefully my posts, from the beginning OP even (none of which was addressed), you will see that because God forgives (1), it followed that He chose to forget (2) the transgression, thus forgotten transgression, is (=) forgiven transgression. God does not just forgive, without forgetting the transgression.

    Now if you please consider what has already been presented in regards "commandments contained in ordinances", without simply asserting an apriori, but show the work, even line upon line, then if you please address the two locations, the memory and the books, as well as Leviticus 16; Matthew 18 (texts as cited), being removed from the book of life, in regards forgiven sin, being reinstated, as well as the scriptural differences between "covered" and "blot out".

    Please "deal" kindly with these things.
     
  18. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    20
    Matthew 18:21-35 KJB, consider it in the light of the sanctuary (Psalms 77:13 KJB), even the day of atonement (Daniel 7:9-10,22; Revelation 14:6-7, 9:13-15; Leviticus 16 & 23:26-32, even specifically vss 29,30 KJB.)

    Matthew 18:23 KJB - Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
    Please notice that Jesus is speaking to Peter, about forgiveness, which Jesus then begins speaking about the "kingdom of heaven", and a certain "king", which "would take account" (future tense) of "his servants", being those who call Jesus, "Lord, Lord", even "master".

    One owed a debt he could not pay, but the Lord "... loosed him, and forgave him the debt." (vs 27)

    Was the whole debt forgiven? Of course (see vss 27,32), but what happens later because of the actions of that person in the time of mercy, probation?

    See vss 31-35. Forgiveness can be undone. Sins covered, can be uncovered.
     
    #58 One Baptism, Jul 11, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
  19. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    6,448
    Likes Received:
    1,572
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well, alas, no. Your prolixity and my lack of time means, as I have stated before, that nobody, I suspect, reads your posts in full. You should write these long screeds on a blog; brevity and conciseness are necessary on discussion forums.
    That is true, as we know from Jer. 31:34. But it is not an inference that we could make otherwise It is entirely possible to forgive without forgetting. But you seem to be saying that God does not, in fact, forget because He reminds Hiself from His 'books.'
    I refer you to my posts #7, 13, and 17, and also "Reformed's" post #15. They are perfectly clear.
    Let us be quite clear: God knows all things and forgets nothing unless He chooses to do so. That is the essence of His omniscience. The idea of God keeping 'books' is figurative language to help us understand that at the Judgement, every thought, word and deed will be considered (Matthew 12:36) unless one's sins are covered by the blood of Christ (Ephesians 1:7 etc.). But if God says He will remember our sins no more, I think we ought to believe Him and not suppose that He is playing games with us. He has expunged the sins of believers from his memory, erased them from His books and deleted them from the database of heaven.
    Now we need to be careful here because we know that "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven" {Matthew 7:21). True saving faith in Christ involves repentance (Mark 1:15 etc.) and a new birth (John 3:6), but those who have truly trusted in Christ for salvation are His sheep and will never perish.
    I trawled through your voluminous posts and all I could find on Lev. 16 was this:
    This is dreadful stuff, basically the Colossian heresy. 'And you are complete in Him, who is the Head of all principality and power' (Colossians 2:10). Christ is all the Levitical sacrifices; they find their fulfilment In Him. He is the Yom Kippur, and there never needs to be another one. Pulling odd texts out of Daniel and trying to press them into your scheme won't help. When the Lord Jesus Christ says, "It is finished." it really is.
    Matthew 18:21-35 is a parable. If you press the details too far, you miss the message. 'Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king......' 'Like,' not 'identical to.' The Lord Jesus is speaking about an earthly king. earthly kings change there minds; God doesn't. 'For I am the LORD, I do not change; therefore you are not destroyed, O sons of Jacob' (Malachi 3:6).
    You might like to consider the parable of the Good Shepherd in Matthew 18:1ff. When one of His sheep goes astray, the Good Shepherd goes and brings it back (cf. John 6:39). So if a sheep goes astray and the G.S. doesn't bring it back, what is the conclusion? Obviously the sheep did not belong to the G.S. So our Lord says to the lawless ones in Matthew 7:23, 'I never knew you;' not, 'I knew you once and then forgot about you. Again, in 1 John 2:19, we read, 'They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us.' Those whom Christ has redeemed by His blood upon the cross will never perish. They have been given to the Son by the Father and He will not lose even one.
    I have to go out now. I will try to address these last points later. I make no promises though; I have a life outside this board. :)
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    17,612
    Likes Received:
    1,880
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, we have both a position in Christ (including our death to sin) and a hope in Christ (which Paul identifies through the Resurrection).
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...