Entertainment sinful?

From that thread (link below)

DHK said:

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/10/5196/8.html?

DHK, EVERY example you gave above was sin and perversity, not entertainment.

Diane offers:

 

DHK said "But entertainment for entertainment's sake is not condoned in the Bible. If it is, back it up with Scripture."

Yet some folks seems to think he is discounting enjoyment of life in the Lord.

I smell a skunk in the cabbage patch.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/10/5196/8.html?

DHK, EVERY example you gave above was sin and perversity, not entertainment.
[/QUOTE]
I didn't see anything in that link that disproved my point. I have said many times that the Bible commands us to rejoice in the Lord. The Christian life is a victorious life that rejoices in the Lord Jesus Christ who is our source of peace and joy, something that cannot be found in the world's carnal offer of amusement, fun, and devilish entertainment.

Every form of professional sports that I know has been tainted with drug scandals, and most with violence. Sure I gave examples of perversity in the Bible. Carnal entertainment always leads to perversity and sin. It still does today, and Christians today condone it. Thirty years ago Christians of almost every stripe would tell you that dancing was wrong. Why? They would tell you that the environment was wrong. In most cases the music was wrong. And in many cases it led to immorality.
Ask the same question today. Is dancing wrong? See the different answers you get.
We have a church close by (Charismatic). They have a mosh pit near the stage in front of the pulpit. They play rock (CCM??) music. Entertainment does not glorify God. It is of the flesh. Are they competing with Hollywood to get people into the church? Is throwing people up in the air glorifying to God? If so how?

People have come out of that church, and come to ours totally confused, not knowing what salvation is all about (health and wealth gospel), trusting in their experiences to save them rather than in
Christ. Carnaltiy reigns; not Christ! Entertainment will lead those people to HEll!
DHK

 

What about Little League?

 

You wrote : Every form of professional sports that I know has been tainted with drug scandals, and most with violence. ---

Sadly - Every denomination on the face of the earth that professes Christ has a scandal in at least one of its more well known churches. Should we "cease participating in church" because of that?

OR - should we encourage Christians to take active parts to prevent such abuses in the future? Should we encourage them to set examples, living examples, for the world? To be the counselors that the children can turn to?

My son's in Pony League Baseball. It isn't a church owned team - officially, but there isn't a single coach in the league that is not a professing Christian who encourages children to attend church, study God's word, and pray. They begin every game, every parent meeting with prayer. They don't just tell the children, "Be nice to one another," they tell the children, "How would Christ want you to act right now?" They don't say, "Gloat over your victory," they say, "Don't forget to thank God for giving you the ability to play ball."

 

No, Jim, he said "The only one that provoked individuals to have "fun" entertainment, was Satan"

That is discounting enjoyment of life in the Lord.

 

No. It ISN'T.

I can see the difference. Why can't you? Or better still...why WON'T you?

In HIS service;
Jim

 

I don't belong to a denomination. I don't recommend them. They aren't my problem. If you are part of one, I would recommend that you get out.
If your local church doesn't practice church discipline, the find one that does.

What kind of abuses are you talking about? Our church doesn't practice "abuses." If yours does, I would leave it.

Good for them. All the leagues around here play on Sunday as well. Does yours?
DHK

 

Don't know about TS's teams, but our teams here do not play on Sunday. But even if they did, we don't go to church all day on Sunday, what would be the problem with a game in the off time. A whole lot cheaper than taking the family out to eat. (guess what, there is no scripture that says baseball on Sunday is a sin)

 

In the Big Inning.... ;)

 

Romans 14:4-6 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.

Romans 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

Romans 14:10-12 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

If you have the least doubt in your mind that smoking pot for entertainment is wrong, then don't do it.
If you have the least doubt in your mind that CCM in the church is wrong then don't do it, or avoid those churches that do.
If you have the least doubt in your mind that going to Professional Sports Activities where booze is sold, violence is promoted, etc., and you know in your heart that it doesn't glorify God, then don't go.

In short: whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
In short: We shall all give account of our actions to God.

1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1 Corinthians 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

1 Corinthians 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

In the New Testament we do live in an age of grace. There is freedom. God has given us a measure of liberty. However that liberty can become a stumblingblock to those that are weak in the faith. It is at that point that one's liberty ought to cease. It is shameful to see Christian's exert their "right" to listen to "their" CCM, drink "their beer," smoke "their cigarettes," and engage in all other forms of carnal activity.

1 Corinthians 9:4-6 Have we not a right to eat and to drink? have we not a right to take round a sister as wife, as also the other apostles, and the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? Or *I* alone and Barnabas, have we not a right not to work? (Darby)

Notice the "rights" Paul gave up to minister the gospel. A true disciple doesn't have any "rights." He gives them all up for the sake of Christ. That is why Jesus said:

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any one will come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me;
--To deny yourself of your "rights," your "desires," and give yourself completely to the service of Christ is not as easy as it seems. It involves sacrifice (a dirty word for most).

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

C.T. Studd gave up professional sports to be a missionary to China first and then to Africa--places with no electricity, no running water, no amenities of any kind. He gave up a fortune to sacrifice his all for Christ.

William Grenfell was the physician to the King of Ehgland. He came to know Christ as His Saviour. The Lord put it on his heart to be a missionary to Labrador: cold, damp, icy, Labrador. At that time there was not much in Labrador in the way of electricity and running water. At the end of 40 years of missionary work in that barren land to the native people there he looked back at the posh life in the palace of the king that he could have lived. How much did he miss? He wouldn't have traded it all. How thankful he was to God for the opportunity to serve as one of his ambassadors in winning others to the Lord.

Billy Sunday was another Professional Baseball player that gave up his career and became a successful evangelist.

Unfortunately many Christians are like the rich young ruler in Mark 10 who walked away sorrowful from Jesus. For today they covet their materialism and worldliness more than their love for God.
DHK

 

Because Billy Sunday gave up a career as a professional baseball player does not really denote that he did it because the career he originally chose was full of sin....I would imagine when you are called by God to become an evangelist, it takes up all your time (as it should as God is a pretty big vocation to wrap your arms and heart around).

 

The problem here DHK, is that you are the one convinced that these things(CCM, baseball...) are sin.

The rest of us aren't convinced, therefore it is NOT SIN for us to do such things. Not only are we not convinced, but most of us have no doubt whatsoever that these things are NOT sinful in and of themselves. We are very aware that they could become sin if we used them in a sinful manner.

Colossians 2:20-23:

Therefore if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulation---"Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," which all concern things which perish with the using---according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.


If we simply took your word for it that all entertainment is sin, would we not be tossing aside this bit of scripture which warns us that manmade commandmants are of no value? The scriptures which you have presented us merely warn us to be wise in our activities, whatever they may be. There is sin in every corner and behind every door in this world. We can't get away from it. It is going to affect us in one way or another whether we sin ourselves or not.

Look around, was that waitress that served you breakfast a Christian? Well if she were a sinner than why were there? What about the owner of the restuarant? Was he a Christian?

We have to be in this world and at the same time not of it. It is not always easy to do just that, but it is what we strive for. Should we condemn one another because we haven't all reached the same point of spiritual maturity at the same time? I don't think so......

[ July 20, 2005, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: blackbird ]

 

One more thing to add:

http://www.metc.net/~walkman/exira/bsunday.html

The above is a link to an excerpt from a diary describing how a community prepared for and enjoyed a Billy Sunday revival meeting. If you scroll down to the entry for October 10, you will see how Billy Sunday continued to use baseball. Obviously he didn't believe to be a sin or he wouldn't have encouraged the boys to participate.

 

1. I know that I am not the only one. So don't make a sweeping generalization that it is me against the board. That is not true.
2. You don't really know what my personal position is, because I haven't presented it. I have challenged you with a theological position which has yet to be Biblically refuted, except by myself in the last post by the Scripture that I gave you.

And that is exactly why I gave you those Scriptures out of Romans 14. "Let every man be full convinced in his own mind. For whatsoever is not of faith is sin." I certainly hope that whatever you do, you do in full assurance that what you do is glorifying to God, and you are 100% sure that it is right. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. If there is the least little doubt in your mind, don't do it, for it will be sin. That is the Scriptural teaching.
The Scriptural teaching also is that if by your actions you offend others or be a stumbling block to others don't do it. Perhaps 30% of your congregation hold views similar to mine. Will you go out of your way to offend them by standing up for your "rights" to exercise your carnal activities? That is also sin.

Remeber you will give account to God for the things that you do, and the consequences of your actions.

Perhaps you don't understand the verses you just quoted. First of all we are not even talking about the Jewish rituals and ceremonies which ended at the death of Christ. So lets put these verses in a modern context and see how they apply to us today.
First, "we have died with Christ from the basic principles of the world." That in itself speaks of separation of the world. If anything it speaks of separation of such things as professional sports, separation of CCM, separation of worldly dress, separation from the world in general.
"Do not subject yourself to regulation" Although this applies to the Jewish system of ceremonnial ritual, today it can apply to some people's churches' legalistic approach to legalistic approach to worship. We ought to give up worldliness, not because any church or person commands us to, but out of a love for God. Our motivation ought to be holiness, and a desire to be more like Christ, not "rules of any particular church. There is a big difference.

So these things may have an appearance of self-imposed religion if done with the wrong heart attitude. Do you have the wrong heart attitude? That is the question. If done with the right heart attitude the result is a holy life lived for Christ.

Now you are coming closer to the truth. I have been consistent in my statements: Entertainment for entertainment's sake is sin. But I never said that all entertainment was wrong. We have a young people's group. Every Friday evening they have an activity--soccer, baseball, floor hockey, etc. It is an outlet for teen-age Christians to fellowship together, apart from the world. It sometimes ends up ends up as an evangelistic out reach. It almost always has a time of devotions with it. Thus it is not simply entertainment for entertainment's sake. It has some definite goals in mind: Christian fellowship, evangelistic outreach, Christian growth (devotions), etc.

What has that got to do with the price of tea in China? It is off topic.

Go back and read my post. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Be sure you are glorifying God in the things you are doing. If you are the least bit unsure, then don't. The tnings that you do or don't do are between you and God. You will stand before God and give account for God for your life and the things that you do. I or anyone else will not give account for your actions; you will.

I want you and others to consider this also. It is an example: Tomorrow evening there is a football game telvised on the TV that I would dearly love to see. Yes, I enjoy sports also.

But can I justify three hours of my evening (prime time for witnessing and visitation) when there are so many people in need.
Here are some examples of some people in, or related to members, or acquaintes of our church:

One person recently released from jail, also recently trusted Christ as his Saviour. He needs follow-up, discipleship. He also needs the assurance that he will be accepted by those around him. He needs a friend.

A couple saw their teens go through high school. One now is in college. The other is a teen, quit school, and is messed up in the drug scene. Do you think they need help? Do you think that there son needs help? What is more important: that family or a football game? Can I really justify the football game.

There are two ladies that are shutins and haven't been visited in sometime, nor get many visitors. What about them?

There are many in the church that have unsaved relatives, all of whom we are praying for that will get saved. But somehow I think that the only way that they will get saved is if someone will go with the gospel and visit them.

There is a young man in his twenties, brought up in a good Christian home, but now determined to marry an unsaved girl who has no interest in Christianity whatsoever. The young man doesn't even attend church any more. What a tragic situation this is. Is football more important than this?

My point is that professional sports takes Christians away from the Word of God, away from prayer, away from the needs of the church, away from the needs of others. If all the needs I presented to you weren't there, there would still be others, and there still is a city here of a million here, most of whom are not saved. One could always go from house to house preaching the gospel to them--the lost.
In the light of all of the above how important is a football game or any professional sport.
Entertainment for enteraiment's sake is sin.
DHK

 

DHK - I agree with you that spectator sports are out of hand. There is too much emphasis on it. However, given the choices for exercising the temple "body", playing baseball is not a sinful choice. There are other activities that children pursue that less wholesome, but I won't stir up someone's wrath by mentioning them.

If one avoids all athletic pursuits, how should we keep our body's (temples) fit? We only take up the offering once in our church. Maybe the ushers could come to "offering practice".

 

Yes, I can agree with that. That is why I mentioned that in the context of our church our young people (sometimes even our church families) get involved in a sports activity. The young people, for example are playing soccer right now on a regular basis. They are all Christians, all members of local churches, mostly ours. And it gives a far different environment than a secular league. Sometimes, when winter comes we have two or three churches that cooperate together and rent a gymnasium every week to play floor-hockey or volley-ball.
DHK
DHK

 

Aww, DHK I think we're back to agreeing again.

Couple of minor points to clear up:

Didn't mean to make it look like you were the ONLY one. Just that is seemed to me that you thought that way, while I and others who were participating in this thread held a different opinion.

You have a lot going on! So what do you do for rest? Sometimes mere sleep is not enough to give me strength without doing something to take my mind off the activities of the day or week. It is one reason I come to the BB. Putting my mind off what's going on, or discussing it with others here, is a great form of relaxation for me. And I consider it entertainment, which is why I don't sit here all day.

It is possible that that football game could give you a much needed break from everything you have going on.(something only you could decide)

But here is where I draw the line between entertainment for relaxation and entertainment for entertainment. If I am using the entertainment as an excuse to keep from doing something I know I should do and do then, I go do what needs doing. (how's that for a run on sentence?)

 

Folks---I'm joining this thread awefully late---but let me see if I can help

Maybe we are thinking along the same lines---then again---maybe not---but over in the book of Hebrews 11---God describes for us the spirit of the hour found in Moses' journey of faith---

vs. 25 & 26 tell us that Moses chose "to suffer afflictions with the people of God, then to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward."

If its a sin to enjoy a little entertaining---like say---"going fishing"---camping---junk like that----then ya'll help me---'cause I've messed up royally!!!

I believe there is a difference between entertainment verses what the Hebrew writer describes for us as----"the pleasures of sin"

The Hebrew text above tells me that Moses came to a realization that

his worst day serving God is better than his best day serving Egypt. So what constitutes a "pleasure of sin???"---ever thought about that???

Maybe its----any good thing that the world has to give----taking the place of even the worst that God can give!!! When the world "throws its best" at 'cha---and you give up even the worst God can give for the best that the world can give----that becomes a pleasure of sin---thus entertainment---if that entertainment replaces even the worst that God can give----look out!!! You're fixin' to mess up!!!

 

I give those examples and others because Christians are so lax in their time with God, often putting their wants and desires above the commands and desires of Christ. We have a good percentage of our population in this city that come from different ethnic backgrounds--many from Asia.
I met a Sikh. He tells me that he tithes (gives 10%) of his time to God, in prayer and meditation. He gets up every morning at 4:00 a.m. and spends two and a half hours in prayer and meditation. That puts most Christians to shame.

Most Muslims also put most Christins to shame. The more devout ones pray five times a day. They go through their ritual (which takes about 20 minutes) five times each day. And that is not counting the extra time they may spend in the mosque in the afternoon to hear the sermon of the maulvi, especially on their holy day--Friday. Again, I would say Christians are put to shame.

I encounter Buddhists, that spend hours in meditation. Where they find the time, I don't know, but they do. Their relgion means more to them than our Christianity means to us (by all outward appearances).

Yet, it is the believers in Christ that have the truth, and we sit at home watching the TV, rented movies, internet movies, and the such, instead of getting out and doing something for Christ. We will give account of our time (however misspent) for God.

Consider the testimony of John Hyde, missionary to India, in the late 19th Century, early 20th Century. Not many knwo him as John Hyde. He is commonly known as Praying Hyde and for good reason.

http://www.omegafaith.org/prayinghydepage2.htm

There was no time for entertainment. He spent his time in communion with God; in prayer, travailing with God, for His power, wrestling with God, for souls to be saved. How we need prayer warriors today! Instead we have entertainment warriors. I hope you see my point. God has given us only a certain alloted time on this earth. Some day we will give account to Him on how we used that time; how we squandered it away, or how we used it for his glory. What have we done?
Why are the false religions more devoted in their religions than we when it is we that have the truth?
DHK