Free will makes God appear impotent.

We are all held accountable for the truth presented us. We all have the Four C's...creation, conscience, circumstances and ceaselessness. If people reject the basic truths we are born with, why does Gid need to do anything else with that person?

It's also a question begging fallacy to say they haven't heard. Fact is, we don't know. Christ presented Himself to Paul, and I've read testimonies of Muslims and African natives that would blow your mind.

 

There is no evidence that anyone who has dies has not heard of Christ. I know that idea fits the idea that God offers grace to some and not others but anyone dying without hearing of Christ just cannot be substantiated.

 

How can we all go with what we believe in a determinist model? The determinist states we believe what we do because it has been predetermined. Sounds awfully like "free will".

 

If the HS desires to change my prospective.

 

Jesus stated that we were ALL enslaved to sin before he saved us, and that we were just obeying the lusts of the flesh and enemies of God per paul, so were both of them wrong here?

 

Would you define Free Will though as meaning that a sinner on their own accord can hear the message, or rad the Bible, and come to jesus to get saved?

Or does even that need to be given /enabled to them by the Holy Spirit Himself first?

Doo you hold to the Fall as killing us off spiritually, or just wounding us, as he does?

 

He wants to believe that God purposely passes by people as he believes it argues for Calvinism.

He doesn't want to believe that God loves everyone and desires everyone to be saved because that would refute Calvinism.

 

Bosley, Bosley, Bosley, what do you want?

Baloney, I showed that Albert Barnes agreed perfectly with my interpretation. He didn't write that for me, he died 84 years before I was born.

I don't think it, the scriptures SAY it.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

There is not another verse in all the Bible that directly asks, "HOW shall they believe in him" speaking of Jesus. This verse is directly addressing the question of ABILITY to BELIEVE. Does Paul imply that a man needs to be regenerated to believe here? NO. Does Paul imply God the Father supernaturally injects faith in a man's mind here? NO. Paul implies that the man must HEAR of Jesus to believe.

That's it, that's all a man needs to believe, to hear of Jesus Christ and how he died for our sins and rose again. This is KNOWLEDGE. This knowledge enables any man to believe unto salvation in Christ. The scriptures directly say this.

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Plain as day, Paul told Timothy that the scriptures were able to make him wise (knowledge) unto salvation through faith in Jesus.

The word of God will teach you that you are a lost sinner.

The word of God will teach you that God became flesh and dwelt among us.

The word of God will teach you that Jesus lived a sinless life under the law.

The word of God will teach you that Jesus died on the cross for OUR sins.

The word of God will teach you that Jesus rose from the dead, and now sits at the right hand of God.

The word of God teaches you that if you place your faith in Jesus you will be saved from your sins.

That's it, nothing else needed. This knowledge will enable you to trust Jesus as your Saviour if you will. And this is all Paul implies any man needs to believe on Jesus, he must hear of Jesus and the gospel.

That is correct, no man can come to Jesus unless he has heard and learned from the Father.

Yes, knowledge does not cause you to come, but it enables you to come. Those who refuse to truly listen and learn will not come. Many people hear the gospel, but they do not take it seriously.

It is like telling young kids that drugs are bad for them. Some listen and learn and never take drugs. Others hear, and they understand, but they scoff, they laugh, they ridicule. They think they KNOW better. The don't need to listen to their parents or authorities, they are sure they can take drugs and quit anytime they want.

And that is exactly how people become drug addicts and die from overdoses.

God does not come down and speak to us personally like he did with the prophets, or with Paul. Today we have the completed word of God which is able to make us wise unto salvation.

But you have to listen, God doesn't listen for you, he does not learn for you. That is your responsibility.

God does not FORCE you to learn, you are pouring your doctrine into the text when it is not there. God gives us his word, but the man must HEAR, the man must LISTEN, and the man must LEARN. God does not hear for you, God does not listen for you, God does not learn for you, that is YOUR responsibility.

It is no different from school. The teacher gives the student everything he needs to enable him to learn, but the student must listen, study, and learn, no one can do that for you.

Did God come down and speak to you personally? Or did you hear the gospel from a preacher as Paul said in Romans 10?

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?


Did Paul ask how a believer shall hear without God the Father personally teaching him? NO, Paul asks how they can hear without a PREACHER.

You see, you do not know the word of God, and this is why you err. If you listened to the word of God you would know God the Father uses the scriptures and preachers to teach men. God does not come down and speak personally with every believer as he did with Paul, that was an exception.

Pure bunk, you are pouring your doctrine into scripture again, it says no such thing.

Dude, you do not have a clue, because instead of listening to the word of God and learning from the Father, you have learned from listening to men who teach error.

The scriptures say that the word of God itself can make a man "wise" unto salvation through faith in Jesus.

You need to quit listening to false teachers and listen to the scriptures. You are WAAAAAAAY OFF!

 

Okay winman, are you going to answer my questions or not?

 

None of this carries any weight with blinded eyes, deafened ears, hardened heart. They are just words on a page to the sinner(1 Cor. 2:14).

Once regeneration occurs, they then begin to come to understanding...

Now here comes the "baloney"...

 

None are w/o excuse per Romans 1. His creations show that there is God per Psalms 19.

Wasn't it Brigham Young or was it Smith that stated that an angel appeared unto him? Saul was the last one that Christ presented Himself to in a personal manner. I would never accept someone's testimony that Christ personally appeared to them, myself.

 

Just thought I'd throw in a little jargon.

The thread title says "Free will makes God appear impotent"

Ummm, ok. So what? Who cares how it makes God "appear" in your mind ??

That's nothing but an inflammatory emotional appeal. It shouldn't matter one stinkin' bit how it makes God "appear". The issue is, and should always be, WHAT DOES SCRIPTURE TEACH ??

 

"WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURES TEACH?"

That no one can come to God unless/until they're drawn....

 

I say baloney because what you are saying IS baloney. The scriptures themselves say a person can be enlightened by the word of God and have "tasted" (but not eaten) of the heavenly gift (salvation through Christ) and brought to the very point of repentance, and yet fall away in unbelief.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

These persons understand the gospel, they have been "once enlightened". They've tasted of the heavenly gift, but not eaten. They've have been brought to the very point of repenting, yet have fallen away in unbelief.

Here is what Matthew Henry, a Calvinist said on this passage;

So, the scriptures themselves say a person can be enlightened. They understand the gospel, and understand that Jesus died for their sins, but reject Christ anyway. These persons will never be renewed to repentance again.

So, your interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14 is error. This chapter is not speaking of the simple gospel that a child can understand, but the "deep things" of God.

1 Cor 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

And if you read the scriptures a person must have the Spirit to understand these deep things of God, but they must first believe to receive the Spirit.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Paul's question demands a YES answer, these Galatians had received the Holy Spirit by believing the gospel. Faith preceded regeneration.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Were these Jews in Acts 2:37 regenerated? NO, unless you can be regenerated without the Holy Spirit. Yet they were convicted, their hearts were pricked, and they desired to be saved from their dreadful position.

What did Peter tell them they must do? They must repent, and be baptized in Jesus's name for the remission of sins. This means they must believe, as only believers were allowed to be baptized (Acts 8:37).

Only after repenting and believing the gospel would they receive the Holy Spirit, and no man can be regenerated without the Spirit.

Since you became a Calvinist Willis, you have become an expert at butchering the scriptures and giving them a false Calvinist spin.

 

I thought you bashed those who quote other's writings? :confused:

 

If that is ALL they present yes. That is not what I do, or WHY I do it. I would be happy to explain Hebrews 6 in my own words, and as you know I explain scripture all the time.

But you will not listen to me, you will just blow me off as though I do not know what I am talking about.

So, on occasion I will quote well known and respected theologians, most often who are Calvinists and do not share my views, but more often than not their interpretation of scripture is exactly what mine is. And this is one of those times.

That is far different from copying and pasting some creed that someone else wrote. Most six year old kids can do that today, that doesn't prove you know anything. In fact, it argues that you don't know anything, so you must resort to copy and paste what others have written. It is also extremely LAZY.

You know better Willis, I go to great time and trouble to post scripture and then explain in my own words what I believe they say. I don't need others to do my thinking for me.

I am no mindless parrot.

 

And that's great. But scripture never hints at "free will" making God appear impotent.

Now, I'm not advocating a position when I say that. Just that its a very teenager-like argument to base an objection on how it makes you feel.

 

Winman

most do...they know you just make it up as you go.:laugh:

you did not deal with 1 cor2:14 at all....you jumped into a passage about apostasy......it is two different things...but that does not deter you:laugh:

if they did they would be further along in finding truth than if they read you threadkilling posts:laugh:

The historic church has written down much truth that you despise.You cannot understand what you read, so you ridicule it as if your novelties are better:laugh:

Yes...and sadly we read your error everyday over and over....

eccl7:29, lk18,rom7, and of course Cornelius[how could we forget?]...blah blah blah.....always wrong ideas ...all the time...now you seek to undermine Con1....

 

RLBosley

God put the Calvinism into John 6, not C1.[/QUOTE]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::laugh:

yes...the tk does this 24/7....ignore, twist, it is intentional.....that is his goal...
you have outlined it very clearly here.

 

And it just so happened that a scholar (Albert Barnes) agreed with my interpretation perfectly, and did not agree with Willis's interpretation.

For somebody making it up as I go along, I am doing pretty well.

I DID deal with 1 Cor 2:14, I said this scripture is not speaking about the simple gospel that a child can comprehend, but the "deep things of God"

Comprehension is not one of your strengths apparently.

Whose truth?

Much of the "historic" church disagrees with your views.

And just because many so called "scholars" agree with you does not make it truth. For hundreds of years the greatest "scientists" in the world believed the world was flat.

Nobody put a gun to your head.

That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but I would bet that a lot of readers find my arguments compelling. In fact, I have received quite a few PMs from folks who have told me just that in the past.

You, you just copy and paste what someone else wrote. You let others do your thinking for you. LAZY.