Free will makes God appear impotent.

Again then answer me this...what about those who died in the mid-centuries who died never hearing of Jesus Christ? You'll appeal to mystery, just like the claim slammed on us. I have you cornered with this, and you know it.


If they died never hearing of Christ, unless you hold to mysticism, they couldn't have been saved.

 

RIIIIIIIIIPPPPPPPPPP!!<--------THE SOUND OF THE CONTEXT.....




No man can come unless My Father which sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. No one can come unless drawn. That's not a free will, not on iota of freedom.

RIIIIIIIIIIIPPPPP<-------THE SOUND OF THE CONTEXT AGAIN.....

Why did some know who He was and some didn't? What did Jesus tell the Pharisees in John 8? They were not of His sheep and His word had no place in them. Not because they desired to commune with Him, but solely because they were not of His sheep.They all shall be taught is in reference to His sheep, and not goats. Jesus is a Shepherd of His sheep and is not a goat herder.....

We, the church, are commanded to preach the word to every creature is correct. We don't know who His sheep are, but He does. We make the gospel call to all, knowing the sheep, in His time, will hear and come and be gathered into the sheepfold, which has one Shepherd, Jesus Christ.

Again, what about those dying in the mid-centuries never hearing of His prescious name? They can't believe in Jesus if they never heard of Him, now can they? If they never heard of Him and none can be saved outside of believing in Christ, what happened to them? ***jeopardy theme music***-

Oh, I think you're so far out in left field, you haven't even pulled into the parking lot yet. John 1:13, John 3:3, John 5:29, Romans 9:16, 1 Thess. 2:13, just to name a few. In your obstinance, you fail to see them as they are..biblical truths.

You really need to look in the mirror to see who is ignoring the scriptures to fit their pet doctrine(s). You've been shown your gross errors by Brothers Benjamin, Skan, DHK, and those are of your own side of the debate.

OMG. You look at the scriptures like you're eating a pretzel whilst playing the game "Twister".

It amazes me that you quote a calvinist when he agrees with you. I am utterly shocked you'd even want to read their vile writings.

 

<-----added this...

 

Albert Barnes was an honest man, and this caused him lots of problems among the Calvinists. But for the most part, he interpreted scripture honestly.

And he agrees with my interpretation of John 6:45, it is explaining how men are drawn to Jesus in verse 44, by being TAUGHT of God, not being regenerated as you falsely teach. The scriptures NEVER say that, and I think you know that.

You cannot simply go through scripture and put your Calvinist "spin" on it Willis, but that is what you are trying to do.

I seriously doubt any thinking person would be fooled with your eisegesis.

 

Whatever helps you sleep at night....


You have been shown your errors time after time, by BOTH sides of the debate, and you just go right along with your nose up in the air, knowing more than all of us combined.

 

Now, do you want to answer these questions for me?

 

Look Willis, Albert Barnes died over 80 years before I was born. He didn't interpret scripture to agree with me, he interpreted scripture for what it ACTUALLY said.

It is you that is putting a Calvinist spin on scripture, not me.

And I think you know that. If not, you are the only one who does not know it.

 

Yes, but he's the only one you'd quote. You wouldn't quote Calvin, Pink, Beza, et al....I think you quoted CHS a time or two...


I am not putting a calvinist spin on the scriptures....

 

Now again, will you PLEASE answer this post for me?

 

You made your point Willis....now roll it up.:smilewinkgrin:

 

He won't answer that last request, Brother Steve. I wonder why? :confused:


He knows the answer thwarts everything and undermines his theology...

 

How so?
Can you elaborate?

 

Winman, winman, winman... *sigh*

While convicted1 hears the ripping of the context, I hear whimpering and agony... it's the sound of you torturing the text.

You continue to repeat this error. You think that man is only lacking knowledge. If only man acquired enough information he could be saved! I said it before, but that sounds like gnosticism to me. But that is not, at all, what this text teaches.

Pay attention:

Who is being taught in verse 45?

Jhn 6:45 NASB - "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.​

Those that come to the Son correct? Those are the ones being taught.

Hearing, learning and coming are all related in this text. That is the first major problem with your idea that knowledge is all we need. There are many who know A LOT about Jesus, and yet do not come. They refuse to come. If you were right, then every student in every Sunday School class would be a believer, and none would fall away. However Jesus says that EVERYONE who has heard and learned comes to him. Every single one. There is not one who hears that does not come. So we know right away that Jesus is not speaking about simple education or evangelism.


Now, who is doing the teaching? You propose that it is the church:

But you ignore Jesus' own words:

Jhn 6:45 NASB - "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.​

The NASB uses all caps to indicate OT quotations, here it also takes your attention to what you repeatedly ignore in this text. According to Jesus, who is the one giving this education?

God himself.

Not the church.

Pay attention to what he actually says,"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.'"

Not taught about God as you try to mangle it to say, but taught "OF God" or "BY God" (NKJV, NLT, NIV,ESV, HCSB etc.).

Specifically, Jesus says they "learn from the Father."

This is the second major problem with your interpretation. This is one of the clearest passages in all of scripture that shows the effectual calling of God in the heart of the believer. God himself will teach them, and every single one of them will hear him, and every single one of them will learn, and every single one of them will come to the Son. It is inescapable.

And why is this significant?

Jesus is quoting Isaiah 54, and the context there is when the Lord will make his New Covenant with his people, there called the
"covenant of peace", and just like the other prophetic passages that pointed forward to a new covenant, Isaiah shows that there is a new universal aspect to this new covenant: ALL who are in the new covenant community will personally know God! They will all be taught by him (Isa 54; John 6:45), the shall all know God, from the least to the greatest (Jer 31:34). So Jesus is demonstrating clearly that he is bringing in the Lord's new covenant, under which all the people in the covenant will personally know God and they will all respond to his calling and will all, infallibly, come to him.

So lets recap:

Those taught are those who come to Jesus. All who are taught will come, none are lost.
It so God who teaches, not the church. This is God effectively and infallibly teaching, calling and drawing people to the Son.
This is to fulfill the prophets vision of a new covenant age when all in the covenant will personally know the Lord.

This all adds together, demolishing your opinion and making your quotation of Matt 28:19....

...utterly irrelevant.

Scriptures never say that all man needs is more knowledge in order to believe in Jesus. That's just flat wrong. It's true that no one can believe without knowing who Jesus is, but that does not negate the fact that no one can believe without it being granted to them by the Father.

Jhn 6:65 NASB - And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."​

You can't ignore what doesn't exist.

God put the Calvinism into John 6, not C1.

 

Okay...winman has stated many times, using John 6:45 and Romans 10:13, and that those who are taught and learn of Jesus are the one drawn. Also, no one can know of Jesus, unless they have heard of Him. Both those statements are true. Now, how do those verses jive with John 12:32?


According to history, the native americans believed in an afterlife they called "the happy hunting ground". When they killed an animal, they left their heart so that their spirit would roam. They believed this but they never heard of Jesus until the pilgrims came around, what was it, 1620 or so? So, taking all of these verses into account, they just don't mesh, imo.

Then there were third world countries that never had missionairies for years, if I'm thinking correctly.

 

Don't you find this fascinating though? God slowly changed your beliefs to Calvinism, and at the same time showed me that freewill was the truth of the scriptures, also showed Webdog to it seems.

So you see Webdog as having an open heart to learning and in his open heart to learning he went from Calvinism to Freewill. Your open heart went from Freewill to Calvinism. Strange don't you think? All of us claiming God showed us................

 

We all have to go with what we believe we've been shown. Finite minds can't truly grasp it all. The main thing is having His blood shed upon us.

 

And so Steve, do you find complete truth in where your theological prospective s have led you? Are you content with all the answers?

 

Never! Forever learning and willing to change my pov. How bout you?

 

To the casual reader, notice the red herring used by the determinist. Instead of dealing with the text stating manKIND is made in Gods image POST FALL., he then presents a completely unrelated text. It completely goes over his head that Seth could look like Adam and still be created in the image of God. Using his reasoning it wouldn't be murder to kill anyone but Adam.