Nice try friend. The Scriptures I've given refute your notion of decisional salvation and state we are not free in any sense until Christ sets us free. :thumbs:
Free will makes God appear impotent.
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by convicted1, Aug 9, 2014.
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When you say "free" you mean the man will make the choice he desires, and that if he desired different he could choose different. That's all smoke, because you do not believe he could possibly desire different.
Calvinism must redefine words to work. They redefine desire as freedom. They believe an unregenerate man can only desire sin, so he is free to choose only sin. They believe a regenerate man can only desire good, so he is free to choose good.
This is redefining freedom. If you do not have the ability to choose either sin or good, then you are not free at all.
The scriptures do not teach that man is forced to choose only his desires or nature. The scriptures teach that a "servant of sin" can choose to obey the gospel.
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
The Calvinists will not address this scripture, because it destroys their false teachings. Paul showed that these Romans who "were servants of sin" obeyed the gospel. Their sin nature did not compel them to choose only sin, they were able to choose good and believe the gospel.
And the moment these slaves of sin chose to believe the gospel they were made free from sin, and became the servants or slaves of righteousness.
The scriptures do not agree with Calvinist doctrine whatsoever. The scriptures teach that even slaves of sin can choose to believe the gospel from their heart.
Game over. -
Scripture clearly refutes man being free and of salvation being decisional.
This reminds me of a problem in the church of those within who say; 'I've always believed...' and that steaver is your stance. -
Jhn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Does this verse say a person must be regenerated before they can make a free choice? NOPE, there is not one word to this effect in this verse.
Jesus simply said the truth shall make you free. It is simply listening to and learning from the word of God that makes you free. You do not need to be regnerated. Preacher4truth cannot show that anywhere in the Bible.
No, faith comes by "hearing" (not being regenerated), and hearing by the word of God.
If a man will simply listen to the word of God and learn from it, the word will enable him to believe on Jesus.
2 Tim 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
The scriptures do not teach that a man has to be regenerated to believe, the scriptures teach that the word of God is able to make a man "wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus".
Calvinism wants salvation to be some magical, mystical event that no one can understand, but Jesus told his disciples to go out and TEACH all nations, TEACHING them to observe all things I have commanded you. A man can LEARN that Jesus is the Son of God who died for his sins and rose from the dead, and this knowledge enables any man to put his trust in Jesus and be saved if he will choose to do so.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Don't drink the Calvinist Kool-Aid folks. -
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Again, Adam was born upright, sinless, holy, none of us can say that...at least with a straight face. We are made in Adam's image, post-fall....
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Apparently the truth does cut deep for you to resort to such lows. -
- God (post fall ) -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Con 1 is correct after the fall the image is still there but corrupted and fallen... -
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
really...then Con 1 already answered you on this;
5 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth
opps:laugh::wavey: try again
That moses...always twisting the text, right!!! -
--no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;John 6:44 (YLT)
Here Jesus states that no man is able to come unto Me, if the Father which sent Me draws him. How then is one's will free? There's some qualitative words there that are there for a reason.
--Jesus answered and said to them, `This is the work of God, that ye may believe in him whom He did send.'John 6:29 (YLT)
Even the ability to believe in Jesus is the work of God via the gift of faith.
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I am going to tell you something, and it's the absolute truth. When I first was on here, from 2007 until last June-July, I believed in free will. I championed it with a vigor like the others do now. God slowly changed my beliefs to where I am right now. Go back and read some of my posts from a few years ago if you don't believe me. I have been on both sides of the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, and trust me, the nastiest posts I have received are from the Armminians on here.
The problem I have is with all the obstinance on here. Most don't want to learn, but show others what they know. I came on here to learn. God has used many wonderful people on here to help me with my beliefs. I used to hold to modalism, not Jesus only, but God only...meaning God expressed Himself three different ways instead of a triune God. Then someone told me Jesus wasn't God and I thought he was an idiot. I then read Rev. 5, and saw God on the throne and Jesus taking the book from His right hand. I then thought Jesus was not God, but the Son of God only. I went around with this new learned teaching, telling people that Jesus was not God. I was the idiot. The understanding of the Trinity confused me for sooooo long. But these fine people on here, by not asking questions, but reading posts, God used them to help me understand His word better. I then got a clear view of the Triune God.
I was also once a borderline antinomian, pretty close to JamesL's belief. But after God changed my views on the scriptures, I dropped that notion quickly.
Take Brother Webdog for instance. I don't agree with his theology, and he doesn't mine, but I truly respect him. Why? He was once a calvinist...thinking 4-pointer w/o believing the "L", but he'll have to clear that up for you. He is now where he's at. I respect that. That shows me he has an open mind, and more importantly, an open heart to learning. Too many on here are set in stone, and haven't change their beliefs one iota. That show me they're a closed door and still on milk.... -
We are procreated beings...made in the image of Adam, post-fall. The marred image of God, just like Seth was made in Adam's image, so are we... -
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Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Jhn 6:45 explains verse 44. Does it say a man has to be regenerated to be drawn to Jesus? No, it says they have to be TAUGHT. What men lack that prevents them from coming to Jesus is KNOWLEDGE. That is why Jesus commanded us to go out and TEACH all nations.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Nowhere do the scriptures ever say a man must be regenerated before he can come to Jesus and believe on him. What the scriptures do say and teach is that a man must be TAUGHT to have the ability to come and believed in Jesus. No man can possibly believe in Jesus unless he has heard of him.
Calvinists choose to completely ignore the many scriptures that teach this.
So, you are just butchering the scriptures with a false interpretation.
Jesus is not saying that God implants faith in men as you are falsely trying to say.
So, you are truly butchering the interpretation of scriptures with your Calvinist "spin" on both John 6:44 and John 6:29.
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