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Is Christianity Accessible to All People?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Feb 2, 2018.

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  1. delizzle

    delizzle Active Member

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    Weren't you the one who mentioned something about "God not spoon feeding manna to the Israelites"? I can't remember if that was you or TC....but eh...

    But to answer your question...yes! So work is required. Just look up any verse which is prefaced with "Unless you..." (repent and believe, confess and be baptised, become like a child, ect...) that is a work.
     
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  2. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for clearly stating your position, but obedience to the Law + faith = salvation is something that the Apostle Paul spent his Christian life fighting against. Half of the NT vehemently condemns such an idea.
     
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  3. delizzle

    delizzle Active Member

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    Hebrews followed the law out of obedience. Their faith is what saved. In regards to Paul. Romans 10:9 sounds like work to me.

    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    Romans 10:9 KJV
     
  4. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    You do not understand Pauline theology. How do you reconcile your belief in faith and works with Ephesians 2:8-9?

    Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    I think you need to study the salvific work of the Holy Spirit which precedes any outward confession of faith by man.
     
  5. delizzle

    delizzle Active Member

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    I never said we are saved by works. I merely said that there are many passages that clearly state that "unless we _____, we will be saved." This clearly demonstrates that there is some action that is required on our part to be saved. I even referenced Paul in Roman 10:9 to prove it. James also clearly states that faith without works is dead.
     
  6. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    If there is any action on our part in order to be saved, then it is faith plus works. This is serious stuff. I am not just seeking Internet debate points here. I am hoping it is just your misunderstanding of what is a Spirit-generated response. By the time a person confesses with their mouth justification has already taken place. All you are witnessing is a confession of that faith. Look closely at Romans 10:8-11. You first see a heart work being done by the word preached. While not specifically stated, it is the role of the Holy Spirit to give understanding of the Word. Confession comes afterward.
     
  7. delizzle

    delizzle Active Member

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    I think we are on the same page. But if someone never confesses and accepts Jesus as their savior, is their salvation possible?
     
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Yes. It is a life's work:

    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Ro 10

    This is NOT a one time formula/incantation one does in order to become immortal and go to heaven, it's literally a way of life. It's THE way of life for His children. You do this everyday. It's an ongoing affair throughout the believer's life.
     
    #68 kyredneck, Feb 4, 2018
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  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    How do you reconcile your take on this with James 2:24?:

    24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2

    Or this?:

    5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    6 who will render to every man according to his works:
    7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2

    Or this?:

    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice,
    29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. Jn 5

    Or this?:

    10 For we must all be made manifest before the judgment-seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor 5

    Or this?:

    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
    36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Mt 25

    ....there's not even any mention of faith at the judgement, let alone 'faith alone'. We're going to be judged by our works.

    (I suspect that Reformed may now have me on his 'special list'. We'll see.)
     
    #69 kyredneck, Feb 4, 2018
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  10. delizzle

    delizzle Active Member

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    Agreed. Nobody can confess with their mouth that "Jesus is Lord" except through the power of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:3) But a confession of their mouth is a work nonetheless.
     
  11. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    That you found someone else to share your opinion does not make it correct. You cannot have it both ways; faith and works.

    Theology is an exercise in precision. Words mean things. We must strive to understand what God is instructing us to do and to know. When the Bible tells us that we are not saved by works we cannot inject a work. Is confession something we do? Yes. If I confess Jesus as Lord verbally I have done something, but theologically it is not a work.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
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  12. delizzle

    delizzle Active Member

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    I don't think we are in a disagreement. Thank you for your response. I know it is paradoxical. But I believe we are saved by grace alone. By faith alone. However, we must take certain actions to take claim to that grace (repentance, baptism, ext).
     
  13. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    If we need to take certain actions to take claim of grace, then it is not grace. Grace is neither earned nor deserved. It is unmerited. Grace creates a response in us, but never confuse that response with a work – or worse yet, something we do to “take claim” of it. We have no claim to grace. On the contrary, God has a claim on us, if we have been born again. Paul wrote, “we are His workmanship” (Ephesians 2:10).

    I truly hope that we are engaged in nothing more than a semantical argument, but I am not certain of that. I have engaged with Mormons who speak the same way you do about grace; that it is a thing they need to lay hold of by their actions. Like you, they even include repentance as something they are required to do to realize the grace of God in their life. This is what I mean when I write “words mean things”. When you wrote, “I don't think we are in a disagreement” I cannot accept that on face value unless what we claim to believe passes the test of scripture, and I am not sure that it does.

    Edited to correct typos.
     
    #73 Reformed, Feb 5, 2018
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  14. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    We are indeed saved by a "life's work". Christ lived a life of perfect obedience to the Law. Through faith we are joined to Him and rest in His work.
     
  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Yes:

    ....to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister. Col 1:22,23

    Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Ro 11:22

    Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:1,2

    but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end...... for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: Heb 3:6,14
     
  16. delizzle

    delizzle Active Member

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    Believe me when i say we are on the same page. However, when we look at scripture at face value, can you see how someone can easily conclude works based salvation?
     
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Besides the fact that justification by faith alone is anti-scriptural, when it comes right down to it in the final analysis there's not a one of you 'sola fides' that really really really believe it.

    The demons have 'sola fide'.
     
  18. delizzle

    delizzle Active Member

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    And they tremble.
     
  19. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    No. I do not see that at face value, at least not from a Christian perspective. When Paul writes, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Ephesians 2:8, 9) and, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24) and, "but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23); he is making it perfectly clear that there are no works involved in justification. Even our Lord makes this clear in Revelation 22:17, "The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost."

    We cannot afford to be imprecise in our terminology. There is too much at stake. We debate a lot of things on this board. Sometimes individuals misspeak. Other times they are not aware of the proper terms to use. But we also have wolves in sheep's clothing that come on this board. The moderators/administrators do what they can to catch dangerous teaching, but sometimes the purveyors of such teaching are skilled at obscuring their real beliefs. I am not saying you are such a person, but my caution flag starts waving whenever I hear works described the way you did, and also your suggestion that we need to take claim of grace. I really do not know what you believe, but I am concerned enough that I am paying attention to what you post.
     
  20. delizzle

    delizzle Active Member

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    Fair enough. But let me ask you this, if scripture is so clear on this issue, why does the Catholic church disagree? They use the bible as well and came to a different conclusion. Do you not see how James 2 can cause someone to mistakenly believe in works based salvation?
     
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