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Featured Is faith a work?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by kyredneck, Feb 8, 2023.

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  1. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    He was taking them off of their obsession with doing miracles, specifically making food, and trying to redirect them to the important thing - faith.
    There is a double "justification". Justification by faith when you are declared righteous by God and saved. And a justification before men that will occur at the final judgement. Men cannot see faith except by the results of it which involves works.
    Faith, when listed as a fruit of the spirit is not the same faith as initial saving faith which is a unique aspect of faith.
    In verse 23 Jesus says faith is one of the weightier matters - not that it is a work.
    Seriously, get yourself a good commentary, or go to a church with a good men's bible study or an adult Sunday school class. Life is too short to fool around all the time with these interpretations. You attacked me on another thread for using commentaries, and then you go right to a thread like this where you propose a doctrine that no one else is using. We've had pretty much an intact Bible in our own language for 1000 years. Do you really think there is some verse you found that ALL the other saints before have overlooked except you?
     
  2. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Faith is a fruit of the Spirit. Faith works.
    But, faith is not a work that humans will into action. Instead, faith is ordained by God to cause us to do the works God determines that we do.
    *Galatians 5:22-23*
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

    *Ephesians 2:10*
    For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

    *Hebrews 12:2*
    Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
     
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  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, our putting our faith toward something, is a deed or action or thought we do, and thus can be designated a "work" but it is not "works" which earn a reward. Romans 4:16 God's action, or non-action as a result of our "faith" is by grace, thus the "work" earned no reward and does not merit any reward. Romans 9:16 precludes our willing or doing some deed as resulting in salvation, because salvation depends not on what we do, including our faith, but on God alone.
     
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ...which He referred to as the work of God.

    Double justification? Just two? What about justified by grace? Justified by God? Justified by blood?

    Before men? Where do you get that?

    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor 5

    32 and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats;
    33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Mt 25

    I've heard of this 'justification before men' from others. You have a scripture reference so that I can read about it?

    Would you flesh this out from scripture for me please. I'd like to read more about this unique aspect of faith.

    Yea, it's a weighty matter of the law.

    Are you insinuating that trusting the LORD in the OT is different from trusting the Lord in the NT? Please, show me from scripture.

    I've a small fortune in time and money in commentaries and I've been in church all my life, SS included. I reference several commentaries often when needed.

    Seriously you should do yourself a huge favor and set aside other's opinions. Start by stripping away from your mind everything that you think you know about the Book, approach it as a child that knows nothing, praying as David "Let me behold wondrous things from thy law", begin at Genesis page one and read through it as quickly as possible in order to get the idea of it. You'll never be sorry for doing it. Then you won't be such a wish washy leaf in the wind, and you'll know what YOU believe Dave.
     
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    So are all the other 'works'. Faith is not the source of good works. The spirit is the source.
     
  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Indeed the Spirit gives the gift of faith This gift causes us to do the work that the Spirit has ordained us to do.
     
    #26 AustinC, Feb 8, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2023
  7. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    I think that was rhetorical. He's trying to shift the conversation.
    No. Grace, God, blood are all referring to the justification by God. They are the same.
    It's in James, more specifically in Matthew in regards to a final justification.
    No. I could look it up but it would be a good thing for you to start doing.

    You are right in the sense that most of all our reading of scripture or other spiritual content books should be for developing a closer walk with God. And all theological study should be for experiential reasons and for increasing our faith and knowledge. But if I cited a commentary that says exactly that would it still be wrong? What you consider a "wishy washy leaf in the wind" I think is actually trying to take advantage of the work and life experiences of others. You guys are walking examples of the dangers of a private interpretation of scripture.
     
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  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    I DON"T think it was rhetorical. It fits perfectly with judgement by works. Our 'work of faith' is included in the 'works' package.

    I forgot to include our justification by works, which comes out of our circumcised hearts with the law written upon it that God gives us.

    I don't need to look it up Dave. I KNOW, justification before men is nowhere in the final judgement and is absurd, it's not to be found in the scriptures. You need to put the commentaries down long enough to read your Bible and then you'd know it.

    Strip away from your mind everything that you think you know about the Book, approach it as a child that knows nothing, praying as David "Let me behold wondrous things from thy law", begin at Genesis page one and read through it as quickly as possible in order to get the idea of it. You'll never be sorry for doing it.
     
  9. Guido

    Guido Active Member

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    The Book of Galatians says we are justified by faith and not by works.

    No one going heavenward will face Christ at the Great White Throne judgement. It is the lost that will be judged by their works.

    What does any of that have to do with faith vs. the works of the law? Neither the word faith, nor the word law, is found in the passages to which you are referring. Therefore we must find other passages in the Bible on how to be saved, complimenting this one, rather than conclude that reading the whole Bible will result in a works-based understanding conducive to one's salvation.
     
  10. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    We just disagree. I respect that.
    Here again, I think I know what you mean but if you read commentaries you would avoid that way of putting it.
    Here again, just this nasty, insulting manner of yours. I've not picked up my commentaries enough to know much about it actually. I think it comes from the early chapters of Romans, one place in Matthew, and in James. I think some of that stuff was reasoned out of the fact that if a person lives for a time after being saved there will be works and at the final judgement works are manifest but except for God, that would be the only evidence. I don't know.
    Don't do that. That advice sounds more like it came from Star Wars. Try 2 Timothy 2:15. (avoid 2:16 it knocks us all off of here).
     
  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    We are to study God's word.
    Yet, you have chosen the path of the Pharisee who took his theology from rabbinical commentaries and traditions.

    Kyle is rightly pointing you back to study the primary source.

    The very verse you point to is telling you to study God's word. Let that sink in, DaveX.

    Faith is not a empowered by the human will. Faith is empowered by God who gives us this amazing gift so that we can fulfill the ordained will of God for our lives.
     
  12. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Are you still a little mixed up? I'm on here saying faith is NOT a work. Ky is the one who only uses the Bible - he's the one saying faith is a work.
     
  13. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I was on point regarding the verse you attempted to use. kyred and I disagree regarding justification by faith alone (he adds works to faith and I don't). kyred, here, has been stating that faith is a fruit of the Spirit and a gift of God. We agree on this. Kyred points to scripture. I appreciate that. I think he misinterprets justification passages. He thinks I misinterpret justification passages. We both are forthright and we disagree strongly so that we walk away from each other. But, I appreciate his forthright comments.

    You get your yourself all pouty when people push you to look at scripture. You've done it with me and you've done it with kyred. You seem to want to talk about the people you've read and their opinion, but you don't talk about scripture. That doesn't work well with kyred or myself as we both consider the primary source to be greater than secondary sources. You seem to have a hard time with that.
    But, at least we now know where you actually stand now that you've been pushed.
     
  14. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    I’m not sure how best to answer that, certainly not briefly. My understanding is predicated firstly on the preaching and teaching, some summarized, in Acts where people became believers after hearing the word from those sent by God, much as Paul describes in Romans 10:5-15.

    But it is also predicated on those who hear and do not believe. Those who “perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.” See 2 Thessalonians 2:5-12.

    There are many other points, many of them made in the George Antonios video (Can You Come to Christ on Your Own) and to which I was responding. I think he made a good foundational argument, one that should precede dealing with John 6.

    My understanding of free-will faith, the type of faith that precedes hearing the word of God, is that God has given man the ability to express faith so that he can choose to accept God’s salvation when presented. If I were to couch it in terms similar to those of Calvinism (sorry, but that seems to be where the rub is), perhaps it would be to say that this faith is indeed a work of God, not man, but done much further back, just like other aspects of our human nature. Perhaps another way to agree would be to say that it is also bound up with repentance, so that the turning is a transference of faith from self and the world to God.
     
  15. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Faith is not a work.

    In the passage you quoted, they ask “what must we do, that we may work the works of God?”

    Jesus turns their question around and tells them what God is doing, not what they must do.

    “This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him that He has sent.”

    Faith is a work of God, not a work of man.

    peace to you
     
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  16. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "Spiritual" faith is The Gift of God.

     
  17. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    I also think faith is a work, OF God.

    Included in God's work is creating man with sense, reason, intellect and the volition to either love the truth of God, or not. God has done all that is necessary to bring every man to faith:
    Rom 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    As I came to know God I acquired faith in love of the truth but I did not earn it but rather God gave it to me freely in grace, brought through the of work of His Son and the Father's love for His creatures.
    Eph 2:8-10
    (8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    I have prayed for the gift of stronger faith many times, not that I deserved it but that I loved the truth as He revealed it to me, often the very truth that I cried out to know, and when I receive a stronger faith I do not think of it as something I have earned by my work but rather I am thankful for what I have received and for His work to bring me to it, freely.

    I preach the word of faith in presenting the Gospel as a free underserved gift leading to salvation along with the promises and works of our loving God that are revealed in His Words which bring hope to all.

    I do not consider a response to God's gift of faith or one's growth in it, due a work that they have done. One of my biggest leaps of faith came when I had given up on the ways of the world, was desperate and in tears, I hardly consider that a work. When I came to know God in that new faith I knew there was no going back and I began to fear about all my shortcomings and my prayer was answered with the following words to me:

    Rom 8:14-15
    (14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    (15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

    At this point, instead of fearing that I was undeserving I loved the instruction of being in bondage to a wise, truthful and loving Father and my faith grew even more. I would not consider this response of a growing loving faith, my work, but rather became more thankful for the work of a loving God and the sacrifice of His Son in grace for the underserving like me.
     
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  18. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    With much espect, I think ou are missing the point of Galatians 2:16.. The Holy Spirit is contrasting 'works of law' with 'faith of Christ.' Now does the law work? Of course not! It is referring to our work in respect of the law, an 'objective genitive.' Therefore the contrast only works if 'faith of Christ' is also an objective genitive: our faith in respect of Christ, or, as almost all other translations have it, 'faith in Christ.'

    N.B. I have left out the definite article 'the' in my post because the original Greek does not have it.
     
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  19. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    True, and everyone sees the results.
     
  20. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    "From the law, the Apostle turns to the Gospel. We are justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. Here Paul considers Christ as the sole justifying cause before God, of his Church and people. And on this truly scriptural ground. Christ as their Head, and Surety, and Representative, obeyed the whole precepts of the law, and suffered the whole penalty of the breaches of it by his death. Hence, as the Apostle sums it up in the next chapter, Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law being made a curse for us. Galatians 3:13. Here, therefore, there is as full a confirmation of redemption by Christ, as under the foregoing observation, there was a confirmation of being condemned by the law. And Christ's obedience and death, being set forth by God himself for a propitiation, nothing can be more plain and satisfactory, than that we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of all our sins, according to the riches of his grace. Ephesians 1:7.

    And the way in which this obedience and blood-shedding of Christ becomes the cause of the justification of his people before God is, by virtue of their union with him, and their interest in him. Christ and his people, in the eye of God's righteous law, are one. Hence, what Christ did, is as if they had done it. What Christ, suffered, is as if they had suffered. For, as in all, Christ acted as; their Surety, and being accepted of God, yea, appointed by God in this high character, when he had performed all his Suretyship-offices, and God declared himself well pleased with him, both law and justice must discharge the original debtor, having come upon the Surety, and the debt having been fully paid. Both cannot pay, for, in that case, it would be doubly paid, which would be unjust. And, therefore, the Apostle's conclusion is correct. Now, therefore, there can be no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:1.

    And, lastly, to add no more. The soul's enjoyment of this blessed state of justification before God, solely in the Person, and by the redemption of Christ, becomes the right of every regenerated child of God, in all its bearings, and in all its branches, by faith. So Paul declares: We are justified (saith he) by the faith of Christ. Hence, though the whole work and glory is Christ's, yet the Church enjoys it by faith. We realize the blessed properties of the whole, by our faith in Him, and our dependence upon Him. So, that in the proportion that the Lord gives his people grace to act faith upon Christ, and his complete righteousness, which justifies freely, fully, satisfactorily; such more or less, will be our joy and peace in believing, abounding in hope through the power of the Holy Ghost. Romans 15:13.

    - excerpt from Robert Hawker's commentary on Galatians 2:16-19

    "but by the faith of Jesus Christ; not by that faith, which Christ, as man, had in God, who promised him help, succour, and assistance, and for which he, as man, trusted in him, and exercised faith upon him; but that faith of which he is the object, author, and finisher; and not by that as a cause, for faith has no causal influence on the justification of a sinner; it is not the efficient cause, for it is God that justifies; nor the moving cause, or which induces God to justify any, for that is his own free grace and good will; nor the meritorious or procuring cause, for that is the obedience and bloodshed of Christ; nor is faith the matter of justification; it is not a justifying righteousness; it is a part of sanctification; it is imperfect; as an act it is a man's own, and will not continue for ever in its present form, nature, and use; and is always distinguished from the righteousness of God, by which we are justified, which is perfect, is another's, and will last for ever. Men are not justified by faith, either as an habit, or an act; not by it as an habit or principle, this would be to confound justification and sanctification; nor as an act, for as such it is a man's own, and then justification would be by a man's works, contrary to the Scripture: but faith is to be taken either objectively, as it relates to Christ, the object of it, and his justifying righteousness; or as it is a means of receiving and apprehending Christ's righteousness; the discovery of it is made to faith; that grace discerns the excellency and suitableness of it, approves of it, rejects a man's own, lays hold on this, and rejoices in it."

    - excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on Galatians 2:16
     
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