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Featured Is faith a work?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by kyredneck, Feb 8, 2023.

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  1. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    And then there is the other side. My understanding of free-will faith is that all men have faith, which they express in some way. It is inherent in human nature.

    Eve expressed it when she believed the devil rather than God. The original misplaced faith.

    The typical atheist expresses it, though he may bristle when this is pointed out.

    And then there’s the guy who agreed saying, “Everyone believes in something. I believe I’ll have another beer,” then fell from his barroom perch, stone cold dead. I guess his faith failed him in the end. :Wink
     
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  2. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    There is certainly misplaced trust or belief. But, since faith is only from God, there is no misplaced faith.
     
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  3. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I would like to ask a question relative to the verse above relative to Paul.

    Did Paul on the road to Damascus and three days later change his mind concerning Jesus of Nazareth or on the road to Damascus did God the Father through his Son Jesus call Paul out of unbelief and three days later by giving Paul the Spirit of Truth change Paul to belief?

    I guess I am asking if the above can be the understanding of the verse in your post?

    Let me ask in a different way.

    And the man knew Eve his wife, and she conceiveth and beareth Cain, and saith, 'I have gotten a man by Jehovah;' and she addeth to bear his brother, even Abel. And Abel is feeding a flock, and Cain hath been servant of the ground. Gen 4:1,2
    OR
    And not only so, but also Rebecca, having conceived by one -- Isaac our father -- (for they being not yet born, neither having done anything good or evil, that the purpose of God, according to choice, might remain; not of works, but of Him who is calling,) it was said to her -- Rom 9:10,11

    In both cases was one of faith and the other not of faith? Through anything innate or of God?
     
  4. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I wonder if Adam was, "of faith"?

    Eve?
     
  5. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that highlights one of my observations, namely that those of one camp don't speak the same language as the other(s), rendering resolution impossible. Anyone reading my posts knows that I also emphasize that faith is from God. Human nature has faith, hope, and love, but the object of them is not at all the same for an unbeliever as for a believer.
     
  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    We define faith differently, or at least we define when faith is authored by Jesus.
    You declare that faith is authored in all humans at the moment of physical conception. Humans must channel that innate faith toward it's author or else they will die in their sins.
    I declare that no one is born with faith. We are all dead in our trespasses and sins, with no hope. God must graciously make us alive with Christ and at that moment God gives us a gift of faith, which God authored for that very moment so that we will persevere in faith throughout this lifetime. Thus, Jesus is both the author...and the finisher of our faith.
     
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  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I see once again several poster are claiming that John 6:29 use of a genitive "work of God" refers to a subjective generative - God's work, but they cannot support such a claim from grammar or context. Thus the claim is purely agenda driven nonsense.
    The NET bible translates the phrase as the "work God requires."
     
  8. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    If faith is a "work" than salvation would be non-obtainable.
    As Eph 2:8-9 states - "Not by works of righteousness..."
     
    #68 Salty, Feb 10, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2023
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  9. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Kind of like - By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned. - Did not the Egyptians attempt to do as the children of Israel, have faith?

    IMHO the children of Israel passed through, toward faith, toward a baby brought forth and named Jesus who would die for their sins. The Egyptians were not allowed to stop that from taking place.
     
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  10. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    That could be used as an illustration. The Israelites were fleeing death and destruction, or at least re-enslavement. They were seeking salvation and God provided a way impossible for them to achieve themselves. They took it in faith and were saved.

    The Egyptians had no thought of needing salvation, but rather pursued those seeking it, hellbent on interfering with God’s way of salvation. The Egyptians placed their faith not in God but in chariots and horses. Bad move. Very bad move. But the spiritual lesson had to be illustrated.

    “Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the Lord our God.” Psalms 20:7.
     
  11. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I understand that some believe it is like that, and they have their reasons. I believe as I have explained, and I have my reasons. But, no, you don't express my position better than I do.

    However, we agree on our condition without Christ—dead in trespasses and sins. Before placing our faith in Christ, that’s the way we all lived. See Ephesians 2:1-3

    We also all agree on the transformation which takes place via the Holy Spirit. God does the transforming work, not us. It is God’s grace that works so powerfully in us and through us. God is the one who sustains us. Not we ourselves.

    Ephesians 2:1-3 (NIV):

    As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.​
     
  12. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    It’s a perception not a reality.
     
  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Kyredneck;
    Shouldn't we say this is God's work. This is what is says to me.
    MB
     
  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    *Ephesians 2:4-5*
    But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
     
  15. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    No one is claiming otherwise. No one is saying that, though dead in our trespasses, we were alive in Christ. Everyone agrees with Paul here. The point is that people are not just dead in trespasses but living in sin. Again, see Ephesians 2:1-3. Someone can start another thread, if they feel the need to argue against this.

    The point that it is ludicrous that the free-will faith position includes a possibility of boasting for accepting Christ, as if faith is a righteous work still stands. Perhaps one may make a case for faith as some sort of work in regard to other positions, but definitely not this one. It would take an entirely different take on scripture to come up with that.
     
    #75 RighteousnessTemperance&, Feb 10, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2023
  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    So, if we were dead when God made us alive, how did we exercise faith? Does the text provide an answer that points toward humans exercising faith before God makes us alive?
     
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  17. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    I added to the post, so see that explanation. But this is the last of it on this thread for me. Start another, if you want to continue arguing the point.
     
  18. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    So you're not going to answer the question?

    So, if we were dead when God made us alive, how did we exercise faith? Does the text provide an answer that points toward humans exercising faith before God makes us alive?
     
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  19. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    IS IT LUDICROUS TO ASK WHERE "repentance" is in the free-will faith position?

    (sorry caps)

    reference:

    Sovereign Grace (Strict & Particular, Old School, Calvinistic)


    W
    e believe that God loved his elect with everlasting love and that they are redeemed, quickened, and saved, not by themselves, nor through their own works, but only and wholly by God, of His own free grace and mercy.

    We believe that God will unfailingly call His elect unto Himself and bring them to belief in the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ.

    We believe that we are responsible to do our part in ensuring that the gospel is carried throughout the world.

    We are opposed to cheap or high-pressure methods of evangelism, and to the preaching of easy-believism, which neglects the essential of Biblical repentance.

    We believe that it is impossible for one to accept Christ as Savior while rejecting Him as Lord.
     
  20. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    @Alan Gross . Alan is that church Calvinistic and KJV? Also, I'm not sure what you are saying with "free will faith" and adhering to the doctrines of grace at the same time. What does that mean? Thanks
     
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