Salvation is conditional on it being recieved solely as a gift through faith, apart from any kind of works. Those who think to merit salvation by any means fail to have obtained it, Matthew 7:21-23. Not the prayer, not water baptism, not the confessions, not the keeping the Lord's supper, nor kind of works to think to keep it.
Is salvation conditional on choosing to believe and follow Gods Word?
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 3rdAngel, Aug 18, 2019.
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Wesley Briggman Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Tit 3:9 KJV - But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. -
MB -
“No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (NASB95) -
MB -
“If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.” 1 John 1:8–10 (NASB95)
But John also says; “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;” 1 John 2:1 (NASB95)
Notice he says IF we sin, not When we sin.
Here's how it works. Paul tells us we should be;
“Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;” (2 Corinthians 10:5) (KJV 1900)
We censor every impure thought or imagination. And change the channel in our thinking on any thought that does not conform to obedience to Christ.
And we replace it with:
“Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.” (Philippians 4:8)
Knowing Jesus is God and God is love. So Jesus is lord of our lives when love rules our thoughts and actions. -
2 THESSALONIANS 2:13 says "But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brothers beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"
Who are the scriptures speaking to that God has chosen from the beginning; Believers or Unbelievers? These scriptures do not say that that we do not have choose to believe or not believe God's Word. The context of this scriptures is to BELIEVERS not to be deceived. It is a closing statement of a WARNING given to believers not to depart the faith and turn away from God's Word. Here brother let's add the context back in....
2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-13
[1], Now we beseech you, BROTHERS (believers), by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to him,
[2], THAT YOU BE NOT SOON SHAKEN IN MIND OR BE TROUBLED, NEITHER BY SPIRIT OF BY WORDNOR BY LETTER AS FROM US AS THE DAY OF THE LORD IS AT HAND.
Note the context here is to fellow believers (brothers) with a WARNING given not to be DECEIVED, SHAKEN IN MIND (depart the faith) because they day of the Lord is at hand. This is the context of the topic of discussion. Paul continues...
[3], LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS: FOR THAT DAY (2nd coming) SHALL NOT COME EXCEPT THERE BE A FALLING AWAY FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
Note before the 2nd coming of the Lord there WILL BE a FALLING AWAY before the antichrist is revealed...
[4], Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
[5], Remember you not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[6], And now you know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time.
[7], For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[8], And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9], Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10], And with all delusion of unrighteousness IIN THEM THAT PERISH; BECAUSE THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED.
Note: the FALLING AWAY described in v3 is because those who fell away from God's Word (brothers fellow believers) were SHAKEN IN MIND v2 and were DECEIVED v3 because they received not the love of the truth v10.
[11], And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Note: because these believers had the truth but did not love of the truth (put it before everything in their life) v11, they were shaken in mind v2, became deceived v3, had fallen away from believing and following God's Word v3 and for this cause God let them follow strong delusions to believe a lie v11 because they did not love the truth more than the things of the world v10.
[12], That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Note: the end result of all those who once believed but did not love the truth of God's Word more than the things of the world and choose to turn away from believing the truth of God's Word? They are to be damned, they lose their salvation because they were not born again to love and had pleasure in sin (unrighteousness) *1 JOHN 5:17.
[13], But WE are bound to give thanks always to God FOR YOU BROTHERS beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth
Note: part of the closing statement here who is the being spoken to; Believers or Unbelievers? "FOR YOU BROTHERS" is in reference to those who are BELIEVERS those who did not receive the love of the truth v10 had FALLEN AWAY from the faith v3 because they were SHAKEN IN MIND v2 and DECEIVED v10 because they had pleasure in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS v12 and did not love the truth v10 God sent them strong delusions that they might be damned v12
God being all seeing and knowing the end from the beginning who will choose to be saved or not saved does not mean that salvation is not conditional on believing and following God's Word as revealed in the scriptures in this OP and all throurgh the OLD and NEW Testament.
We are only set apart as we believe and follow God's Word through faith. It we choose to no longer believe and follow God's Word through faith then we greive God's Spirit and he will depart from us and leave us to FALL AWAY to follow strong delusions. Context matters.
Hope this helps
God bless -
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What you have provided here however only support what is being shared through the scriptures in the OP that salvation is conditional on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's Word because FOLLWING God's Word through faith is what it means to abide in Christ the living Word. Let's take a look at the reason why here...
1 JOHN 3:6-9
[6], Whoever ABIDES IN HIM (the Word) SINS NOT: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.
Note ther reason why someone does not practice sin is because they abide in him. I have put the Word here as JESUS is the living Word of God *JOHN 1:1-4; 14
[7], Little children, LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU: HE THAT DOES RIGHTOEUSNESS, IS RIGHTEOUS.
Make no mistake, once again you are God's children in the fruit you show do not be deceived it is only those who do rightouesness that are rightesous because those who abide in Him (the Word) practice rightouesness and are obedient to God's Word.
[8], HE THAT COMMITS (practices) SIN IS OF THE DEVIL; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Note sin comes from the devil and those who practice sin are not abiding in Christ (the Word) and are the children of the devil
[9], Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Note: if we are born of God we do not practice sin (breaking God's commandments and not believing God's and following God's Word *1 JOHN 3:4; ROMANS 14:23. Now note the reason why he connot sin?
It says "BECAUSE HIS SEED REMAINS IN HIM"
Now the wait for it...
What is the SEED that remains in him?
LUKE 8:11 And this is the parable THE SEED IS THE WORD OF GOD.
We are God's temple we abide in him and he in us as His WORD abides in US as we love and BELIEVE it God's Spirit works in us to will and to do of God's own good pleasure *PHILIPPIANS 2:13
Hope this helps
God bless -
MB -
Apologies for stepping in as I had no intention of interacting in this thread, but I thought it best to clear up a misunderstanding that I've heard time and again about "Calvinism" and the "TULIP"...which was developed in response to the Five Articles of the Remonstants of 1610, during the Synod of Dordrecht 1618-1619.
@1689Dave :
Do you see anything here that indicates that "Calvinists" have to work for their salvation?
" All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end."
Source: Calvinism and Arminianism comparison
" Calvinism: Believers will persevere in salvation because God will see to it that none will be lost. Believers are secure in the faith because God will finish the work he began."
Source: Why Do Calvinists and Arminians Disagree So Strongly?
I don't.
This is why I always do a double take when I see someone make the charge that the "Perseverance of the Saints" means that God's children have to work to keep their salvation by persevering in the faith. :Cautious -
God bless -
The scripture you have provided in your post is not relavent to the topic we are discussing here.
TITUS 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
NOTE: In Titus 3:9 the GREEK word for the law used here is νομικός ; nomikos which means ceremonial laws. So the scripture says to avoid foolish questions in relation to tracing generations [Geneologies] and havnig contentions about the ceremonial laws that are unprofitable.
It is not saying you should not discuss the conditions set forth in the scriptures on salvation and the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Chrsit. The issue of the time was the ceremonial shadow laws fulfilled in Christ from the Mosaic book of the covenant *EXODUS 24:7, not God's eternal law (10 commandments) that give us the knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 6:20; ROMANS 7:7.
Hope this helps. -
MB -
Salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word and is why we are warned not to turn back to a life of sin..
HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26], For IF WE (BELIEVERS) sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
1. WE (BELIEVERS) return back to a life of known unrepentant SIN; HEBREWS 10:26
2. WE (BELIEVERS) being those who have received a knowledge of the truth; HEBREWS 10:26
3. WE (BELIEVERS) will receive the judgments of God; HEBREWS 10:27 -
1) Salvation is not (in my view) conditional on choosing to believe or on sustaining salvation by following His word. Your answer to the OP title question is yes. So we differ.
2) Rather than conditional on us choosing to believe, salvation is conditional on God crediting our faith as righteousness. Just because a person believes does not result in salvation. Recall the second and third soils of Matthew 13.
3) Yes, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is addressed to believers. But according to our verse, they are "chosen" believers, not just professing believers.
4) Since Jesus departed, 2000 years ago, we did not come to know and trust in Him face to face, but through God's word, we believed His gospel, referred to as believing in His "name." But to be crystal, we believe specifically in what we learned about Him, not say information in the book of Numbers.
5) You believe a born anew believer can lose faith, whereas I believe God keeps us for our salvation by protecting our faith, 1 Peter 1:3-5. OSAS -
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Hello Van, nice to see you again. Some comments provided below for your consideration.
I hope you can receive this in the spirit that it was given (love) which is only sent as a guide and a help for correction and instruction in the scriptures brother to help you have a closer walk with Jesus.
God bless. -
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