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John Calvin - Jesus Died For the Whole Human Race

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Martin Andrews, Apr 2, 2017.

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  1. Rlee

    Rlee Member
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    Swastika, wow, that's pretty strong.
     
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    OK, so it's present active indicative then it possibly could have a participle flavor to it:
    "those the father is giving me" ey Dr Cassidy?

    Another question is - do we know the father's criteria of those He is giving to the Son?
    Further back than

    John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    I mean in eternity at the counsel of His own will?

    Why can't we be satisfied with the one criterion (probably among others).
    that we were/are/will always be both utterly hopeless and utterly helpless to save ourselves.

    Surely we can all agree around that at least.

    HankD
     
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  3. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Luke 6

    30“Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back.

    You give it to him whole heartedly, In fact you invite them over for dinner and prepare a extra package of more stuff then what he wanted.

    You declare you were not stolen from, because everything you got belongs to God and his children anyways.

    You end that evil and selfishness in your own heart first, once and for all. And when it hurts to give you tell that pain it ought to hurt twice as much.

    And don't do it with intent of causing thief some guilt trip, do it with a sincere joy and kindness.
     
  4. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Nazis will kill us if we aren't one their elect. But that's it.

    That's Disneyland compared to what Calvinist God does with one who is not elect.
     
  5. Rlee

    Rlee Member
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    Whether you realise it or not, you have done very much of the same here. Not only have you attacked character, but also salvation. You either don't or can't argue without using methods that indicate rudeness and personal attacks. Some say that it's easy to misunderstand the intent of the person at the keyboard but I disagree. I think you have shown yourself here in a way that has left no doubt what you're doing and how you're doing it. Christians can disagree and still enjoy fellowship, but you have already called into question who is Christian and who is not (read as legalism). The rules in this forum are very clear- stick to the facts and stay away from personal attacks. You have failed at that. Personally, if I were a moderator, I would have silenced you long before now. I'm out of this debate simply because of not only these reasons, but stirring up emotions for what seems the sake of personal argumentative success nauseates me.
     
  6. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    I do not believe this is true. God intentions will be that the elect He will use to save the remainder of all mankind.


    Acts 15: 13-18 (ESV) 16 "'After this I will return,and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it 17that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things 18 known from of old.' As well as (Amos 9:11,12).

    The tent or Tabernacle of David is God's glory which is Christ death and resurrection. All die in Adam all will be made alive in (Greek) (en)in/with/by) Christ.
     
  7. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Benoni, the remnant always refers to the elect of God. Whether the context is ancient Israel or the church, God ordains a chosen remnant.
    To apply remnant to all mankind seems out of context and out of God's character.
     
  8. reformed_baptist

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    So, all will saved and none will go to hell?

    Tell me, if that is the acse, why should I worry about following Jesus in this life - why not just sin away and live it up - after all I'm going to save anyway! I guess paul got it wrong when he tells me to work our my salvation with fear and trembling!

    Tell me, if I was to say, "i'll bought all the children in this town who bear my name a cake,' would you think i meant every child in the town or juts those who share my name (are related to me)?

    Yet here you assume that God means all the gentiles when he says, 'all the Gentiles who are called by my name.' why?
     
  9. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Let me repeat myself then from the beginning of the thread here.

    "I don't think people purposely or intent on insulting God. I think they don't think through what they are saying at all. "


    Your accusation is I say your not Christian, Where have I said your not Christian?


    I said the Calvinist stance insults God but not purposely or intently, The quote is above, that's what I said.


    You guys are trying to put words in my mouth because when you can't debate honorably its better just to shut them down all together.

    Attack the content, not the character.
     
  10. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    I did not do that. I said the remnant is God's elect. I also said God has a purpose for this remnant in the ages to come and I refered to Acts 15 and Amos.
    Not all believers are the elect or remnant. God refers to his remnant in many ways here in Revelation they are called the overcomers. I said God's purposes for his elect/remnant/overcomers.
    There are two groups of people I the book of Revelation; those who overcome (God’s elect) and everyone else.

    Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .

    Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
     
  11. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    I am saved because I love God. Do you need fear of hell to follow God? Well lets look at a few more translations.

    Acts 15: 13-18 (Message) James broke the silence. "Friends, listen. Simeon has told us the story of how God at the very outset made sure that racial outsiders were included. This is in perfect agreement with the words of the prophets: After this, I'm coming back; I'll rebuild David's ruined house; I'll put all the pieces together again; I'll make it look like new So outsiders who seek will find, so they'll have a place to come to, All the pagan peoples included in what I'm doing. "God said it and now he's doing it. It's no afterthought; he's always known he would do this

    Acts 15: (Amp) 17So that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles upon whom My name has been invoked,

    Acts 15: (HCSB) 17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord— even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things,

    Acts 15: 17 (NIRV) Then the rest of the people can look to the Lord. This means all the non-Jews who belong to me. The Lord says this. He is the one who does these things.' —(Amos 9:11,12)

    Now if the rest of men may seek the Lord, All the pagan peoples included in what I'm doing “, “ all the Gentiles , the “remainder of man kind are destroyed as you proclaim in the Lake of Devine Purging (Lake of Fire); then what about this promise.

    Acts 24:15
    And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


    Resurrection means to rise; notice the word unjust in other words the non-elect/not believer.


    We cannot have it both ways, my Jesus is not a monster; He is just.
     
  12. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for trying to explain.
    How is it that not all believers are the elect or the remnant?
    Either God has made them alive in Christ (believers and remnant) or they remain dead in their trespasses and sins (unbelievers and non-remnant).
    The only overcomers are the elect remnant whom God has made alive in Christ. There are no other overcomers.
     
  13. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    Is there not a thirty,sixty and 100 fold? God has always had his elect to which God calls be it Moses or David. Notice the book of Revelation it speaks of those who have ears to hear the overcomers not all believers have ears to hear and will be before the throne.
     
  14. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    You see Christ can be in us, or we can be in Christ. To be in Christ means you are totally swallowed up in Christ. Take a bottle of water, yes the bottle of water is full of water like Christ being in us, but is not the same as that bottle of water which is full of water (Christ) is thrown in a pool of water. Now that bottle of water is no longer Christ just with in, but it is now totally swallowed up by Christ. Do you see the difference between Christ being in us and we being in Christ.
     
  15. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    I disagree. Salvation is a experience of growth and maturity. Take the verse about the faith in the mustard seed. The only faith a mustard seed has is to grow. Its a seed. Same with our walk with God. Most dwell in a thirty sixty fold experience there whole life and do not have spiritual ears. They may have baptist ears or even Pentecostal ears but not spiritual ears or JW ears. They have religious ears.
     
  16. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    But, Benoni, a dead man cannot hear until God makes him alive.

    Only believers are overcomers.
     
  17. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    Than I guess these two verses are lies?
    Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    Are not the great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne believers?
     
  18. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    So much for the narrow way being just believers. Goats are also believers in
    Matt 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divided his sheep from the goats:
     
  19. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    How are they lies? God has called and chosen from all peoples of the world. The elect will persevere and overcome.
    Your verses do not say what you are wanting them to say.
     
  20. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    I agree with you that a dead man cannot hear God but just hearing God for basic salvation does not make you an overcomer.
     
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