No way this guy is Southern Baptist.
Mary Queen of Heaven? What?
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Thinkingstuff, Apr 7, 2010.
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Matthew 16:18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it; (Young's Literal Translation)
Peter was "a rock" or more literally a stone.
But Jesus said "upon this rock (not Peter) I will build my assembly (not denomination). The RCC has it all wrong. The church has never been a denomination and never be. It was never the Catholic Church and never will be. The word used, ekklesia, simply means "assembly," something local, something that gathers in one place at one time.
John 20:19-21 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Jesus didn't say this just to Peter as you deceitfully infer. He said to all his apostle. You would do well to be honest in your posting.
Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
--Is Peter the only brother in Christianity?
Your interpretation is very imaginative to say the least, but also very deceiving.
The church here is the local church. There is no mention of the RCC.
The RCC did not come into existence until the fourth century.
The canon of the first century was complete by the end of the first.
You have things backwards.
Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
--These are the early believers. It describes went on in the church that was in Jerusalem in specific. There is nothing here about the RCC. You won't find anything similar about the RCC until sometime past the fourth century. You will find nothing in the Scriptures that even resembles the RCC.
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That is right, DHK, St. Thomas, the Apostle to India, reached the Cragnanore Port in AD 52 and established a Church, but that was the Catholic Church. This has been varified by the writings of Mor Youseph, who was an emissary of the Holy See of Antioch, who had sent missionaries over (about AD 345) to take care of the needs of Syrian Christian settlers. They used the rites and liturgies of the Syriac Church of Antioch and the early Christian converts, you know, the St. Thomas Christians as well as the new Christian settlers known as the Knanaya Christians all came to be called 'Syriac Christians'.
And that Petros, Petra argument is lame. Jesus spoke Aramaic and used the word Cephas. He obviously meant Peter. -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
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2 Thessalonians 2:15
“So then brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”
Dissecting this verse:
Traditions taught by word of mouth = oral traditions
Traditions taught by letter = written traditions
This doesn’t sound like scripture alone to me.
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
Taking the verse apart we see the following:
1.Scripture is inspired by God.
2. Scripture is profitable (yielding advantageous results) for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. Again, Amen! Additionally, since scripture is inspired, then by nature, it is authoritative. However, nowhere does the verse state that scripture is sufficient. Further, nowhere in scripture do we find the words scripture alone. If scripture were the only authority, then one would expect to find it explicitly stated in scripture. It isn’t, therefore, Sola Scriptura (ironically by your own standard) is not scriptural.
Again – this verse says nothing about scripture being the SOLE authority.
You’re just not going to find it anywhere in scripture. Thus we are left with a logical fallicy:
1. Sola Scriptura: Scripture is the SOLE authority regarding the faith and morals of the Christian
2. Nowhere does scripture say that about itself
3. Thus, Sola Scriptura is false
Peace! -
Ignatius of Antioch. In his second-century letter to the church in Smyrna, he wrote, "Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8, 1 [A.D. 110]).
Tatian the Syrian
"Simon Cephas answered and said, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ Jesus answered and said unto him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah: flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say unto thee also, that you are Cephas, and on this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it" (The Diatesseron 23 [A.D. 170]).
The ealry writtings were not just refering to some "universal" group of churchs in the generic sense - they where writing about the Church of Rome.
In his work “Against Heresies [A.D. 180] ”St. Irenaeus begins to list the successors of Peter at Rome. Please note the most ancient, authoritative, and preimenent church was the Church of Rome.
2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.
3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles. In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome despatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of heaven and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spake with Moses, set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for the devil and his angels. From this document, whosoever chooses to do so, may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached by the Churches, and may also understand the apostolical tradition of the Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are now propagating falsehood, and who conjure into existence another god beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things. To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telesphorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Soter having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth.
The Church of Rome existed from the beginning. Later validating evidence comes from Augustine…
Augustine (Letters 53:2 [A.D. 412]).
2. For if the lineal succession of bishops is to be taken into account, with how much more certainty and benefit to the Church do we reckon back till we reach Peter himself, to whom, as bearing in a figure the whole Church, the Lord said: Upon this rock will I build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it! Matthew 16:18 The successor of Peter was Linus, and his successors in unbroken continuity were these:— Clement, Anacletus, Evaristus, Alexander, Sixtus, Telesphorus, Iginus, Anicetus, Pius, Soter, Eleutherius, Victor, Zephirinus, Calixtus, Urbanus, Pontianus, Antherus, Fabianus, Cornelius, Lucius, Stephanus, Xystus, Dionysius, Felix, Eutychianus, Gaius, Marcellinus, Marcellus, Eusebius, Miltiades, Sylvester, Marcus, Julius, Liberius, Damasus, and Siricius, whose successor is the present Bishop Anastasius. In this order of succession no Donatist bishop is found.
Let's put that 4th Century history revisionist myth to rest once and for all.
Peace! -
Peace! -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
1) Ignatious of Antioch cannot be a reliable source of information. It is still debatable whether the letters purported to be writen by him are forgeries or not.
2) Even if Ignatius letters were proved beyond reasonable doubt to be accurate we must question his intention on using the Term Catholic. Universal in what sense? Most protestants hold to the universal sense of the invisible church. It could be that his universal church were all those that agree with him and does not eleminate competing Christian Churches. We note early baptistic views by people such as Jovinian.
3) As far as Titan the Assyrian there are several recensions of his work Diatessaron; which resenssion does this quote come from? I think it matters. Especially since the only extant version is in arabic. Note also that Tatian left the main body of the Church and is not listed with the patristics. Why I ownder?
4)Note he may have made the same mistake about the Use of Aramic in the Gospel. Since we have no Aramic NT and Greek suffiently worked to maintain the word of God.
5) Irenaus only showed the supremecy of the Bishop over gnostic within his area of authority. Would Irenaus had not listed the Metropolis bishop of Alexandria if he lived nearer to that. Irenaus lived in ancient lyons in Gaul under the auspice of the bishop in Rome
6) The Catholic chuch has issues with Eusibius. He has a problem with Hero worship of origin.
So there are several problems with Your points. -
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Could an angel hear our prayers if they were present with us and we were praying out loud? Certainly. But they do not interceed for us. You know what? Demons who are present hear them too. But I never said anything about praying to angels. -
Let’s look at Tertullian as example - the ecclesiastical writer in the second and third centuries.
Before Tertullian was kicked out of the Church for holding to the Montanist prophecies, he formulated two very important doctrines to which most Christians hold today.
Tertullian coined the term Trinity as three persons in one God. Additionally, he developed the idea of Christ as having two natures in one divine person – the hypostatic union. Does his later heresy invalidate these two fundamental principles? No – and neither are Tatian’s contributions invalidated by his eventual apostasy.
Note this passage: “For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church [the Church in Rome], on account of its preeminent authority that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.”
I think that pretty much sums it up.
Peace! -
Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8, 1 [A.D. 110]
The Diatesseron 23 [A.D. 170]
Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 3) [AD 180]
St. Augustine of Hippo (Letter 53, To Generosus 1:2) [A.D. 412]
These ARE the sources - from the authors themselves. You can find their complete works anywhere. I don't know how much more acurate I can get than citing the original works themselves. -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
It could also be all churches started by Non apostolic missionaries be submitted to Apostolic founded churches such as the preeminate Roman Church because of the succession of Two apostles. As in all apostolic founded churches the teachings would be similar.
There are many views on how this passage could be taken. Also note it is also the opinion of Ireneaus as important as he is he also was mistaken about eschatology. So how trust worthy is this opinion. keep in mind the Eastern Chruches thought the theological development in the western churches lacked the subtleties and intuit of the eastern churches. Already we had the Easter affair where Polycarp ( a preeminate disciple of John) openly disagreed with the Bishop of Rome when it came to celebrating the Pascha. Though Ireneaus studied under Polycarp, Polycarp does not seem to defer to Rome's "pre-eminance" with regard to when to celebrate Easter. If Rome had the authority of the head apostle surely Polycarp a disciple of John with all knowledge of apostolic Tradition would realize he was in the wrong to go against rome. However, its clear he felt himself the equal of Rome. -
No I was NOT changing your words. Here is what you wrote.
Hey - you wrote this not me.
Peace! -
2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul;as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, .
He is very clear here: "...that every Church should agree with this Church[the Church in Rome]. -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
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Thinkingstuff Active Member
Also Billysunday we're missing a major point of this thread which I attempt here.
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Pope Clement I
"Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us, we must acknowledge that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the matters in dispute among you, beloved; and especially that abominable and unholy sedition, alien and foreign to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-willed persons have inflamed to such madness that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be loved by all men, has been greatly defamed. . . . Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobey the things which have been said by him [God] through us [i.e., that you must reinstate your leaders], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger. . . . You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy" (Letter to the Corinthians 1, 58–59, 63 [A.D. 80]).
Hermas
"Therefore shall you [Hermas] write two little books and send one to Clement [Bishop of Rome] and one to Grapte. Clement shall then send it to the cities abroad, because that is his duty" (The Shepherd 2:4:3 [A.D. 80]).
Ignatius of Antioch
"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).
"You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force" (ibid., 3:1).
Dionysius of Corinth
"For from the beginning it has been your custom to do good to all the brethren in various ways and to send contributions to all the churches in every city. . . . This custom your blessed Bishop Soter has not only preserved, but is augmenting, by furnishing an abundance of supplies to the saints and by urging with consoling words, as a loving father his children, the brethren who are journeying" (Letter to Pope Soter in Eusebius, Church History 4:23:9 [A.D. 170]).
"Today we have observed the Lord’s holy day, in which we have read your letter [Pope Soter]. Whenever we do read it [in church], we shall be able to profit thereby, as also we do when we read the earlier letter written to us by Clement" (ibid., 4:23:11).
The Martyrs of Lyons
"And when a dissension arose about these said people [the Montanists], the brethren in Gaul once more . . . [sent letters] to the brethren in Asia and Phrygia and, moreover to Eleutherius, who was then [A.D. 175] bishop of the Romans, negotiating for the peace of the churches" (Eusebius, Church History 5:3:4 [A.D. 312])
"And the same martyrs too commended Irenaeus, already at that time [A.D. 175] a presbyter of the community of Lyons, to the said bishop of Rome, rendering abundant testimony to the man, as the following expressions show: ‘Once more and always we pray that you may rejoice in God, Pope Eleutherius. This letter we have charged our brother and companion Irenaeus to convey to you, and we beg you to receive him as zealous for the covenant of Christ’" (ibid., 5:4:1–2).
Eusebius of Caesarea
"A question of no small importance arose at that time [A.D. 190]. For the parishes of all Asia [Minor], as from an older tradition held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Savior’s Passover. . . . But it was not the custom of the churches in the rest of the world . . . as they observed the practice which, from apostolic tradition, has prevailed to the present time, of terminating the fast [of Lent] on no other day than on that of the resurrection of the Savior [Sunday]. Synods and assemblies of bishops were held on this account, and all, with one consent, through mutual correspondence drew up an ecclesiastical decree that the mystery of the resurrection of the Lord should be celebrated on no other but the Lord’s day and that we should observe the close of the paschal fast on this day only. . . . Thereupon [Pope] Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the community the parishes of all Asia [Minor], with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox. And he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicate. But this did not please all the bishops, and they besought him to consider the things of peace and of neighborly unity and love. . . . [Irenaeus] fittingly admonishes Victor that he should not cut off whole churches of God which observed the tradition of an ancient custom" (Church History 5:23:1–24:11).
"Thus then did Irenaeus entreat and negotiate [with Pope Victor] on behalf of the peace of the churches—[Irenaeus being] a man well-named, for he was a peacemaker both in name and character. And he corresponded by letter not only with Victor, but also with very many and various rulers of churches" (ibid., 24:18).
Cyprian of Carthage
"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]). ... On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were also what Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).
"Cyprian to [Pope] Cornelius, his brother. Greeting. . . . We decided to send and are sending a letter to you from all throughout the province [where I am] so that all our colleagues might give their decided approval and support to you and to your communion, that is, to both the unity and the charity of the Catholic Church" (Letters 48:1, 3 [A.D. 253]).
"Cyprian to Antonian, his brother. Greeting ... You wrote ... that I should forward a copy of the same letter to our colleague [Pope] Cornelius, so that, laying aside all anxiety, he might at once know that you held communion with him, that is, with the Catholic Church" (ibid., 55[52]:1).
"Cornelius was made bishop by the decision of God and of his Christ, by the testimony of almost all the clergy, by the applause of the people then present, by the college of venerable priests and good men ... when the place of Fabian, which is the place of Peter, the dignity of the sacerdotal chair, was vacant. Since it has been occupied both at the will of God and with the ratified consent of all of us, whoever now wishes to become bishop must do so outside [the Church]. For he cannot have ecclesiastical rank who does not hold to the unity of the Church" (ibid., 55[52]:8).
"With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and b.asphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (ibid., 59:14).
Firmilian
"[Pope] Stephen ... boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid [Matt. 16:18]. ... Stephen ... announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter" (collected in Cyprian’s Letters 74[75]:17 [A.D. 253]).
Pope Julius I
"[The] judgment [concerning Athanasius] ought to have been made, not as it was, but according to the ecclesiastical canon. It behooved all of you to write us so that the justice of it might be seen as emanating from all. ... Are you ignorant that the custom has been to write first to us and then for a just decision to be passed from this place [Rome]? If, then, any such suspicion rested upon the bishop there [Athanasius of Alexandria], notice of it ought to have been written to the church here. But now, after having done as they pleased, they want to obtain our concurrence, although we never condemned him. Not thus are the constitutions of Paul, not thus the traditions of the Fathers. This is another form of procedure, and a novel practice. ... What I write about this is for the common good. For what we have heard from the blessed apostle Peter, these things I signify to you" (Letter on Behalf of Athanasius [A.D. 341], in Athanasius, Apology Against the Arians 20–35).
Where we see consensus amoung the Fathers, we see acuracy.
Peace! -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
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Peace!
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