Matt 18 and Matt 6 Disprove OSAS

In fact that is the basis for the problem for OSAS - is it is the "fully forgiven" that are expected to "Forgive others AS they have BEEN forgiven".

The teaching of Christ here is not about how the never-forgiven are expected to forgive others.

Hence the problem for OSAS in revoking the forgiveness of the "fully forgiven" in vs 33-35.

You are simply making my point in the statement above.

Which is why this is such a problem for OSAS in vs 35 "So shall my heavenly Father do to each one of you if you do not..."

I think that by now we all know that Christ was not claiming that God was going to turn Christians over to the county jail until they pay back their "sin debt".

The illustration is about salvation and those fully forgiven in the parable are those saved - not those "not in the county jail".

This parable is about the "kingdom of heaven" not the "county jail of man" and as it turns out - non-Catholics do not go for the "purgatory" idea of temporal punishment for venial sins due - each sin with its own punishment in the county jail.

This is about the "Kingdom of heaven" and so also Matt 6 where the same point is made. "Forgive us our sins AS we forgive our debtors" is applied directly in prayer to God for real sin and the "wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23 (the second death) not "time in the county jail" - as I am sure we both know.

Even DHK can see that the one fully forgiven in the story is in the state of a saved saint fully forgiven of sin. So he tries to invent an entirely new branch of the story where the one with forgiveness revoked is on one who was NEVER forgiven at all.

And you of course can clearly see that the one who has forgiveness revoked is the same one fully forgiven - so you try to spin it to "county jail time" - temporal punishment in this life to save OSAS.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The text hasn't been ignored; no verse has.
The answer has been given; but you don't like it; why answer it if you don't like the answer and simply reject the answer I give?
Why do you want me to post the same thing over and over again, so you can pretend that no answer was given--just so you can remain in a state of unbelief??
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The application of the parable is not "outside" the parable. You have a problem with application; always have.
It is those pesky "details" that you follow you around that defeat your position every time. They are the ones you avoid answering.

Let's take another example:
Concerning the Sabbath, Acts 1 makes mention of "a Sabbath-day's journey. It is just a little over a half mile in length. Do you restrict your travel on the Sabbath to that distance? You don't keep the Sabbath do you Bob? It is all hypocritical pretense.
Last night it was minus 28 here with a minus 39 windchill. At minus 40 both systems (Celsius and Fahrenheit) are equal, it really doesn't matter which one I am talking about. It was cold.
On the Sabbath a boy was stoned for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. He was to have done so the day before. What were the sticks used for? Fuel. You employ (cause others to work) gas companies, electric companies, on the Sabbath Day. You use their fuel. They work for you. They are your servants. You cause them to work. You don't make arrangements with them before Friday and after Saturday to cut off your electricity and gas, and then switch it back on so that they are not your servants whom you are causing to work during that period of time, do you?
You are breaking the Sabbath. You don't keep it.
It is the application of the Scripture that you have a problem with. You always have had this problem.

Your questions are irrelevant because they are based on your heretical interpretation which assumes "forgiveness revoked" is a biblical doctrine, whereas it is heresy. Whether or not they are from the text is irrelevant. They are meaningless when they are based on false assumptions.

Forcing the parable to teach doctrine, and doctrine found nowhere else in the Bible is wrong; and your particular doctrine is a heresy.

No they are not. They are the application of the parable by Jesus himself.
But you are on record as one who does not like application. It is too personal and painful for you.

I note that in each and every passage you ignore context and try to make the passage teach something other than the truth that Jesus is actually teaching.
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Stop repeating this nonsense.

Jesus spoke of one type of person unable to understand parables. Who were they? Are you of the same class? If not, why do I have to keep on repeating myself?

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Again, is there a good reason why you don't understand the parable. Look well to Jesus words. They are found in Matthew 13.
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Hint - Matt 18.
[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]

It is obvious to all that Christ's statement to the disciples is outside of the parable - and he applies the details in the parable to the disciples outside of it -- as a warning to them -- in real life

Impossible for the objective unbiased Bible student to ignore.

But some can simply dismiss this detail in favor of their traditions.

Actually OSAS is debunked by Christ's application of the parable in real life.

The point remains.

Well now you seem to have lost the Matt 18 "Bible details entirely" and apparently the entire subject of the thread with it.

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective Bible student.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Tradition? I am not the one holding to the traditions of EGW.
As you just admitted is what I have stated all along.
Verse 35 is an application of the parable to the disciples: first to Peter and then to the disciples. I have never said anything different. Why are you making it seem that I have. You are finally coming to an agreement here. The fact is that since the disciples are forgiven; forgiven by the King himself, that the warning to them is moot.
They are "forgiven and forgiving."
I can preach the gospel to the saved. It is still a message they love to hear. But they aren't the ones in danger of hell. In the same respect the disciples were not the ones that were in the category of the "unforgiving."
They were both forgiven and forgiving.

 

Exactly - all sins. Hardly a problem since that includes all future sins including this sin (Rom. 4:5-7).

The consequences are temporal only as I will show later

It is not that he would turn them over to a "county jail" per se (although that is very possible) but that the discomfort caused IN THIS LIFE by them would be returned upon them IN THIS LIFE. Note his words carefully:

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

The unforgiving servant did not send his servant to hell did he? "SO LIKEWISE" God is not going to send the unforgiving servant to hell either but cause the same misery IN THIS LIFE as the servant caused for his servant in THIS LIFE - "so likewise"

Your application and interpretation is "but" and "unlikewise" but the Lord's words are EQUAL "SO LIKEWISE" or sowing what he reaped.

 

Bob Ryan and E-7 are on this forum for the purpose of causing trouble, pulling peoples chain by starting false threads, spouting false doctrine, and perverting the Gospel. They post the same Scripture repeatedly, with or without false interpretation. We would all do well to simply ignore their threads. Whether they are real or not I cannot say. I can say that Ryan is pushing a heretical doctrine and E-7 is pushing nonsense.

 

And he then forfeits all of it - according to the text. What is worse for OSAS is that this same problem of forfeiting the forgiveness is said to apply to the followers of Christ should they at some point choose such a course of rebellion and unforgiveness.

Which is the problem for OSAS.

If the initial forgiveness is accepted as salvation (which it is) and if it is because of our acceptance and forgiveness by God that we are expected to forgive others - then OSAS does not survive Matt 18 or Matt 6.


35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

No he caused very minor torment and suffering for his fellow servant as compared to the billion dollar debt of torment he had been forgiven.

But once we admit that the basis for our forgiving others - is not that we are not in the county jail - but rather that we have been forgiven our great debt of sin - then OSAS does not survive Matt 18 and Matt 6.

Not at all - my application is "likewise". Luke 12:45-47 - As the king revoked the full forgiveness - of torment and suffering owed on that massive debt and this was the basis for the servant to forgive others - so our salvation forgiveness -- the basis of our forgiving others - will be revoked.



but the Lord's words are EQUAL "SO LIKEWISE" or sowing what he reaped.[/QUOTE]

 

Hence the problem for the man-made tradition of OSAS and the fact that it does not survive the details in the text of Matt 18 or Matt 6.

This doctrine of ignoring the teaching of Christ and declaring it to be moot for the Christian - is the sort of "peace and safety" tradition-of-man that goes directly against the Word of Christ.

Notice that Christ applies the warning to the very people your tradition claims cannot be subject to such a warning.

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Hint - Matt 18.
[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]

It is obvious to all that Christ's statement to the disciples is outside of the parable - and he applies the details in the parable to the disciples outside of it -- as a warning to them -- in real life

Impossible for the objective unbiased Bible student to ignore.

You can say to the saved "you have been saved - relax no problems" and to the lost "you are going to hell - repent".

But that is not the message of Matt 18.

In Matt 18 the message is "you have been fully forgiven IF you do not continue to choose to forgive others AS YOU have BEEN fully forgiven" - your forgiveness will be revoked.

And that is the point in the text where OSAS does not survive the details in the actual text.

Christ did not need to "wait until the disciples fell into a unforgiving spirit toward others " to then give the warning -- why wait for the problem to happen before warning the saints to avoid the problem.

The solution needed to get OSAS to survive the text - makes no sense.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Who is the one clinging to tradition? I am the one that gives you Scripture Bob. You give me musings from EGW. That is the tradition Bob. It is your tradition Bob, not mine.

Your implication is that the apostles were not saved.
Otherwise the conclusion or application was moot for the apostles.
The apostles were not in danger of being thrown into jail for the penalty of not being forgiving leaders. They were not those type of individuals. They taught and practiced forgiveness. You are obviously wrong.

No, he does not. A Christian is both forgiven and forgiving. If you don't have those qualities then perhaps you cannot call yourself a Christian. "Examine yourself to see whether or not you be in the faith."

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It is obvious to all that Christ's statement to the disciples is outside of the parable - and he applies the details in the parable to the disciples outside of it -- as a warning to them -- in real life

Impossible for the objective unbiased Bible student to ignore.[/quote]
Your sad conclusion is that the apostles were not saved.
They were both forgiven and forgiving--the two characteristics of a Christian. Context tells us this but you ignore this.

I never said that, so why lie? Lying is characteristic of the unsaved. You posted the verse that "all liars shall have their part in the Lake of Fire." Do you believe that?

I never said it was; but you just said it was.
Odd how things work out; isn't it?

A Christian's forgiveness can never be revoked. There is no such heretical doctrine. You derive doctrine from a parable which is wrong. Learn how to rightly divide the word of truth.

The parable is speaking of forgiveness not OSAS! But it must harmonize with the rest of Scripture. You don't get this do you?

So Christ threatens his apostles! I think not!
You have a warped view of the Saviour!

The parable is about forgiveness, not OSAS!

 

But you are not understanding what I said. I said the context demonstrates they were already saved before this forgiveness occurred. They were already his "servants" and thus this act of forgiveness has nothing to do with the servants original salvation at all. Note the question again - "if MY BROTHER" sins against me.

The extreme contrast between what the Father forgives his children with the inconsequential offences by brethren is intentional as we can never forgive our brethren of those sins we commit every day against our Father.


35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Who? "his brother" is the answer not a lost person or one who has just been saved and found forgiveness, but two brothers in Christ. "So likewise" shows the consequences are both equally TEMPORAL rather than eternal as one brother has no power to condemn anyone to hell.

The point is that on any given day what God forgives us far exceeds anything our brother may offend us. When we fail to forgive in such MINOR matters when God forgives us daily such MAJOR matters brings upon us exactly what we are sowing and we are not sowing eternal damnation but temproal judgment upon others.

 

Isn't Jesus really getting to the heart of real forgiveness, that he wanted to show to us that unless we really forgive others their sins against us, BECAUSE of what Giod already did for ours, that we risk finding ourselves right here and now under danger of "putting ourselves in prison", as in loss of joy, bitterness, anger all the stuff that casrrying around that junk can produce in us, even after being saved?

 

You can say to the saved "you have been saved - relax no problems" and to the lost "you are going to hell - repent".

But that is not the message of Matt 18 as it warns the saved of their risk in the future should they choose to no longer forgive others as they have been forgiven.

In Matt 18 the message is "you have been fully forgiven IF you do not continue to choose to forgive others AS YOU have BEEN fully forgiven" - your forgiveness will be revoked.

The lack of logic in that response is apparent to all - why keep doing that?

How are we supposed to "not notice"???

Please be serious.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Indeed the opening scenario depicts the Father forgiving lost humanity and thus salvation/the gospel benefit to those who are fully forgiven through the only means possible - the Gospel.

This is one of the key foundational statements made in Matt 18 and a key reason that OSAS does not survive the text.

Which is the very reason that OSAS does not survive the text. It is the "fully forgiven" that are to suffer the fate that Christ depicts both in Matt 18 and in Matt 6.

"So likewise" shows the consequences are both equal between the parable where initial forgiveness is revoked and outside the parable where those fully forgiven are threatened with the same dire result should they choose a similar path to the unforgving servant.,

And the point in Matt 18 and Matt 6 is that forgiveness of our sins by God will be revoked - fully revoked - if we do not in the same manner choose to forgive others their comparatively small trifling transgressions against us.

Exactly! OSAS will not survive the teaching in Matt 18 and Matt 6 where God says He will revoke that forgiveness if we choose a path of unforgiveness and rebellion.


in Christ,

Bob

 

Both DHK and Biblicist have admitted that the one forgiven at the start of the parable in Matt 18 - represents true Gospel forgiveness - salvation.

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Matt 18 is another place where OSAS does not survive the text of scripture

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Notice that the SAME point is made in BOTH Matt 18:35 AND in Matt 6:15... Hint: This is NO exaggeration!

 

[FONT=&quot]Notice that is the SAME slave - the same servant forgiven in the entire parable.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Who here is supposed to be fooled by the wild speculation that this is not the same slave in vs 24-32??[/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]23 ""For this reason the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]kingdom of heaven[/FONT][FONT=&quot] may be compared to[/FONT][FONT=&quot] a king[/FONT][FONT=&quot] who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]one who owed[/FONT][FONT=&quot] him ten thousand[/FONT][FONT=&quot] talents was brought to him.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying[/FONT][FONT=&quot], "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]

 

So what is your problem?
He said the same to Peter didn't he?

How oft shall I forgive my brother Lord, seven times?
"Not seven times but seventy times seven."
--Is this a wild speculation also? As much as your brother offends you, forgive him. Christ forgave Peter; now He expects Peter to forgive others. It is a quality of those that follow Him. If you don't have that quality it is doubtful that you can call yourself a Christian.
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The same servant - fully forgiven is the one "expected to forgive others" according to Christ - and the same one who then has forgiveness "revoked" in vs 28-35.

Obviously - OSAS does not survive that "detail".

in Christ,

Bob

 

It is a parable Bob, a parable on forgiveness. The topic of the parable is not OSAS, but forgiveness. The fact that you are hung up on OSAS shows that you are not interested in a correct interpretation of the parable. Not every part of a parable is meant to have a literal interpretation, just as metaphors don't have a literal interpretation.

Albert Barnes gives a good explanation of this entire chapter. It is well worth reading. The part relevant to this parable is quoted here:

No one has their "forgiveness revoked." There is no such doctrine in the Bible. It is something that you have made up from your own imagination and no one agrees with you.

 

I asked Bob repeatedly to provide a Commentarian, even from his own SDA religion if he likes, who speaks to this "forgiveness revoked". He has yet to respond with one.

 

Have you received the Gift of Eternal Life?

Romans 11:29 - "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable".

1John5:11 - "And the testimony is this, that God has given (Past Tense) us eternal life, and this life is in His Son".

John4:10 - "Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”


John5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has (Present Tense) eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life".

Eph2:8 - "For by grace you have been saved (Past Tense) through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"

Romans 11:29 - "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


Let the reader of this debate understand clearly from the Scriptures that there is no such thing as "Forgiveness revoked". "Forgiveness Revoked" is but an attack upon God's promise to keep those whom He has given Eternal Life. It is the abuse of a Parable in a desperate attempt to war against the teaching that a Child of God is kept by the power of God (1Pt1:5).