Matt 18 and Matt 6 Disprove OSAS

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


There is a long list of other texts that disprove OSAS in the same way - such as those we find in Ezek 18

You are too kind to attribute to me - the teaching of Christ.

You are too careless in simply "glossing over" the application of Matt 18 that Christ makes - that destroys OSAS.

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]

You are too willing to ignore "Bible details" in your glossing over the fact that no less a teaching than the LORD's Prayer teaches the same "forgiveness revoked" lesson that so destroys the tradition of OSAS.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

That is no parable - and we all know it.

No wonder Christ said - in Matt 18 regarding that same principle of "forgiveness revoked" -

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


I could use words like "heretical" bla-bla at every turn in my posts to describe the ideas of someone else - but as we all know I much prefer to simply quote the Bible and let the reader see that the defense of OSAS is in fact an argument "with the text".

in Christ,

Bob

 

Bla-bla-bla Bob. When will you ever give it a rest.
The passage in Ezekiel you take out of context.
The parable is obviously out of context. That is easy to see.
Concerning this prayer, the Lord's Prayer, let's take a look at those verses that remain a stumbling block to you:

Verse 12: "Forgive us our debts as we forgive out debtors.
First, the definition of a Christian:
A Christian is "one who is forgiven and one who is forgiving."
--Both aspects of that definition must be true for one to be a Christian.

Secondly, the term "debt" here is the same term in the parable of the King. The King forgave the servant of a great debt. It was such an enormous debt it could not even be imagined. Such is our standing when we come before God at the point of salvation. Our sins are so great before Him they cannot be remembered. They are too numerous to count. The debt is too much for us to pay. It is impossible. And yet it is He that pays it all.
Note: A Christian is both FORGIVEN and FORGIVING.
If he has been forgiven of such a great debt he will have no trouble forgiving others. Thus the rest of the verse: "as we forgive others..."


14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
--This is the part you stumble over.
Remember the previous word is "debt" referring to our great sin.
This word is "trespass," the same word the Peter was using in Matthew 18, "Lord how often shall I forgive my brother?" The context was trespasses, or offenses or offending one another. As many times as one offends you, you forgive him. Jesus said seventy times seven, which is 490, or innumerable.
The same principle comes into play here:
A Christian is one who is Forgiven and forgiving.
A forgiven person will always have a forgiving spirit and those small offenses will never bother him.

Thus verse 15, for the true believer in Christ, is a moot point. A Christian is both forgiven and forgiving. Both must be present in a true believer. Thus a true believer isn't even concerned about verse 15. It is descriptive of the unsaved.

 

That was good DHK, I agree, a Christian is forgiving.

What is unfair and hypocritical about Bob and E7 is that they demand we address their objections to OSAS which all of us have done repeatedly, but they refuse to address our objections to the doctrine one can lose salvation.

I would ask Bob and Evangelist7 to explain both 1 Corinthians 6:17 and 1 John 3:9 in their system;

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1 Jhn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

How can a Christian lose salvation in light of these verses? If our spirit is joined to the Holy Spirit at conversion to become one spirit, how can that be dissolved? And where is there any scripture that says such a thing could happen?

1 John 3:9 is similar, it shows that the Holy Spirit remains in the believer, and that the believer cannot continue in sin. It cannot be saying that Christians never sin, because it is obvious all Christians do sin on many occasions. Therefore this verse must mean that a Christian cannot continuously sin, that a Christian cannot fall away and remain in unbelief.

How do Bob and Evangelist7 explain these verses? We have patiently answered their objections over and over again. It is only fair and right that they should answer our objections.

Please answer these questions.

 

1 Cor 6:17 could easily mean we are of one mind, one spiritual purpose, etc.
But, this unity in spirit can be broken at any time ... not by God, but by the BAC.

1 John 3:9 says "continue to sin" in the Greek,
and IMO, it means continue to sin habitually, not occasionally.
The new man is not sinning, but the old man is.
However, this must be overcome for the BAC to become an overcomer (which is mandatory).

However, Paul certainly disagrees with John.
IMO, John is much more theoretical ... he wasn't out carousing around the churches.
Paul was much more experienced and practical ... he was out amongst the sinning churches!

BTW, just because people do not understand EVERY verse perfectly
certainly does not mean their doctrines are in error.
.

 

Thank you for addressing my objections.

1 Cor 6:17 doesn't say our spirit is in agreement with the Holy Spirit, it says it has joined the Holy Spirit to become ONE spirit.

It is just like a man and woman when they come together and produce children. That child partakes of both father and mother, yet he is his own individual, he is a new creation.

Likewise, when we trust Christ, our spirit is washed clean and joined to the Holy Spirit. This is the new birth, being born again. You are not your old man, and you are not the Holy Spirit, but you partake of both, just as a child partakes and consists of both his parents.

This cannot be dissolved, and that is what 1 John 3:9 is showing. No matter what we do, the "seed" or Holy Spirit remains in us, and we cannot continually sin, we cannot fall away in continual unbelief. We may have moments of doubt and anguish, but we cannot truly not believe while the Holy Spirit remains in us.

In my opinion, these verses plus several others I could present easily refutes your doctrine that a true born again believer can quit believing and become lost again.

 

You missed the message, it states, "CANNOT continue to sin" - thus, no such thing as a BAC NOT overcoming in Christ. For - "His seed remaineth". Sorry, your man made tradition of one losing salvation is refuted over and over in the Scriptures.

Did the Holy Spirit teach you the Apostles contradict each other??? Really?

 

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


There is a long list of other texts that disprove OSAS in the same way - such as those we find in Ezek 18

not even remotely.

Rather I point out along with a number of Bible commentaries that the lost person in Ezek 18 is saved when they repent and turn to God. But the civil courts (by contrast) do not free the murderers when they become Christian.

Clearly the issue in Ezek 18 is the saved vs the lost.

And even you admit that those in Matt 18 "fully forgiven" are saved.

Revoking the forgiveness of those "fully forgiven" is a problem for OSAS.

Hence the quote of Matt 18 above and Matt 6.

Case closed.

in Christ,

Bob

 

It is too late for you to start dancing around the fact that you already admitted that the "fully forgiven" servant in Matt 18 is "saved" and represents the Christian.

Thus revoking their forgiveness in Matt 18 or ceasing to forgive them in Matt 6 - is the "end of OSAS" no matter how you slice it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Actually I find almost exactly 3 Bible questions from the Matt 18, and Matt 6 discussion that people run from almost non-stop in terms of showing "how the details in the actual Bible" make their case for OSAS.

I am surprised that an OSAS argument would even think to go to 1Cor 6 at all.??!!

How does that even happen??

1 Cor 6

8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren. 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
14 Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! 16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” 17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

1 Cor 3
16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

Paul is not writing a biology text book - a statement of classification/definition. Paul is arguing to "motivate" the saints to take action. He is not saying "don't worry about anything you see yourself doing because you are mind-locked and have no free will -- nothing can go wrong just relax".

Rather he keeps warning them about God killing those who destroy the "temple of God" and about heaven not being the reward for those who go on sinning willfully. (A life of sin)

in Christ,

Bob

 

The same chapters say "do not be deceived" and point to the fact that those who have victory over sin are the ones considered to be on the surviving side of that fence in the case of BOTH chapters you list.

1 John 3
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil,

1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God

(I find that interesting).


1 John 3
3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is transgression of the law. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.


The "definitions" in 1John 3 do not serve OSAS at all from what I can tell.

 

1 John in general is just a bad patch of road for OSAS.

1 John 2
4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

1 John 3
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil,

1 John 5
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.


You would think the OSAS guys would be begging us NOT to quote from the book of 1John.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Okay, this quite good ... except you must realize this about your new man:

-- the new man fully has the ABILITY to be a slave of God, of obedience, of righteousness
-- the new man fully has the ABILITY to NOT be a slave of sin
-- the new man fully has the ABILITY to choose (with his free will) to be a sinner (as much as he likes)

Paul teaches (and warns about) the above OFTEN, and my current favorite is Romans 6:15-23.

IMO, John says the BAC cannot be a habitual sinner.
IMO, Paul says the BAC can be a habitual sinner.

So, I'm confused about this ...
is one talking about the old man, while the other talks about the new man?
Perhaps someone can make this clear (from Scripture)?
.

 

The last time I gave a complete explanation of Matthew 18 you mocked, and thus I will not cast my pearls before swine again. That is my answer.

Now I have given you a complete explanation of what Christ said in Matthew 6 and you have no answer.
Note this and note it well:
The true believer is always fully forgiven by Christ in relation to his salvation.
--I have never strayed from that stand, and don't infer that I have.

 

I gave a very clear exegesis on this in one of the other threads 1John came up in, I would have to look it up. Of course it was ignored.

Basically, John says the saved man (spiritual man) cannot continue to sin "for His seed remains in him" (This is OSAS) he cannot continue because at some point in time sanctification will win out and the flesh will be done away with. Paul and John BOTH say a Christian can and does sin, this is the flesh warring against the spirit, it has nothing to do with taking away the man's salvation seated within the spirit of man, Spirit joined with spirit as one new creation.

Remember, that is not exactly what John said, he said the BAC cannot CONTINUE to sin, he didn't say you would not find any BAC's habitually sinning. All BACs take time to mature and have Christ be formed in them, this varies WIDELY among the Born of God.

 

In the "three questions" from Matt 18 and Matt 6 - DHK has admitted that the "fully forgiven" state - is in fact the state of the saved saints.

==========================================

The three untouchable (apparently) questions:.

1. First this one -- where we see an ALREADY FULLY Forgiven servant expected to forgive AS HE WAS TRULY forgiven.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]

2. Then THIS ONE

Where we see forgiveness revoked - full debt returned.

[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.


3. Then THiS ONE
[/FONT]
Where Christ applies the lesson to His listeners - which is obviously OUTSIDE of the parable.

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]

Which is what we also see with Matt 6. (Which is obviously OUTSIDE of a parable)
15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

=============================

Given the obvious point that the saved state is the "fully forgiven state" and given that fact that Question 3 makes the obvious point of application made OUTSIDE of parable.

The point remains.



in Christ,

Bob

 

The point does remain, a point which you need to seriously consider asking yourself.
Jesus spoke in parables, and he told his disciples why:
"That hearing you might understand." It was a way that his disciples would understand spiritual truth. At the same time it was a way of instruction that the unsaved (the Pharisees) would not understand; they would remain in darkness for the truth of the parable would be hidden from them. They did not have spiritual discernment to comprehend the truths from these parables and the truth was hidden from them, thus he spoke in parables.

Now, as many times as the parables are explained to you, you still do not understand. Perhaps you need to ask yourself why are you not understanding the truth of these parables. Are you in the same spiritual condition as the Pharisees? Have you been so blinded by the SDA that you cannot recognize spiritual truth?

In both passages, one of which is a parable, Christ was speaking to his disciples whom he had forgiven. They could not lose their salvation. Christ told His heavenly Father "I have lost none of them." He said to the disciples "I give unto you eternal life and you shall never perish." What greater assurance did they need. Yet you seem to think by a misinterpretation of a prayer and a parable that they can lose their salvation which Christ said they could not lose. Do you really consider that Christ is a liar?

 

Okay, but pastors insist that some BACs have left the faith.
There are many reasons for one to do this.
And we simply don't know if they ever return, e.g. on their death beds.

Next, there are some Scriptures which say ...
(those who are obviously described as) BACs can reject, lose, etc. "eternal life".
What else could they be rejecting, losing, etc. for there is no mention of anything else (rewards, etc.)?

I can list all of these Scriptures AGAIN, if anyone cares to see them:
-- many verses saying one's faith needs to endure until the end of his life for him to be saved
-- many verses saying true believers can reject, lose, etc. "eternal life".
.

 

What do you say about Judas Iscariot?
"Trusted Christ."
Presumably baptized as the other apostles, probably by John.
Taught by Christ for three years.
Saw the miracles of Christ.
Was able to perform miracles and cast out demons also.
He himself had the power of God and exercised it.
He was actually numbered among the apostles, one of the greatest privileges in Christian history.
And yet, we find in the end that he was a traitor to Christ. His "salvation" was never genuine. Christ had previously referred to him as "the son of perdition." He knew his heart. He gave him every opportunity to repent, but Judas never did.

Are there not many "Judas Iscariots" in this world today?
We don't know the heart. There are some that pretend, and that is sad.
It is not a matter of losing one's salvation.
It is just as John said:

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Some may pretend for a long time, even get a good education, but in the end they don't "endure" or remain faithful as John said. "No doubt they would have continued with us." That is the characteristic of a believer, not the requirement. One doesn't lose his salvation because he doesn't endure. It manifests what kind of "Christian" he really is, or is he? Perhaps he is just discouraged (as John the Baptist was). We are not to judge, or cannot judge man's heart in all cases. In some cases it is evident, but not in all.

 

No doubt we all have known someone who appeared to be saved by all outside observances, just to watch them walk away and even deny Jesus Christ. I know I do, and it makes you realize the importance of giving a clear word concerning the Gospel, being sure to not mix a religion of works and obedience with Grace. I believe many folks that may seem like Christians are only caught up in just another religion of do's and don't's, not understanding born-again, nor ever actually receiving the knowledge of the Truth. Very sad, very sad. It is our duty to be sure to preach the full Gospel to all from the beginning. This includes verse 18 of John chapter 3, how many have this verse memorized with 16&17 ??

 

Originally Posted by BobRyan
In the "three questions" from Matt 18 and Matt 6 - DHK has admitted that the "fully forgiven" state - is in fact the state of the saved saints.

==========================================

The three untouchable (apparently) questions:.

1. First this one -- where we see an ALREADY FULLY Forgiven servant expected to forgive AS HE WAS TRULY forgiven.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]

2. Then THIS ONE

Where we see forgiveness revoked - full debt returned.

[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.


3. Then THiS ONE
[/FONT]
Where Christ applies the lesson to His listeners - which is obviously OUTSIDE of the parable.

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]

Which is what we also see with Matt 6. (Which is obviously OUTSIDE of a parable)
15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

=============================

Given the obvious point that the saved state is the "fully forgiven state" and given that fact that Question 3 makes the obvious point of application made OUTSIDE of parable.

The point remains.

Indeed but "obviously" Matt 6 "is not a parable" and "obviously" Matt 18:37 is the Word of Christ OUTSIDE of the parable - that you are ever so carefully ignoring.

Hence your interesting in ignoring the 3 questions - in this case the third one above.

==================

[FONT=&quot]

3. Then THiS ONE
[/FONT]
Where Christ applies the lesson to His listeners - which is obviously OUTSIDE of the parable.

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]

Which is what we also see with Matt 6. (Which is obviously OUTSIDE of a parable)
15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Indeed they were in the position of the "fully forgiven" servant and it is precisely because of that experience that they - like the servant in the story and like the person in the Lord's Prayer are expected to forgive others.

Hence the "obvious problem" with OSAS when it comes to Christ NON-PARABLE statement in Matt 18:37.

Pretty hard to miss this point.

Even Calvinists might find it hard to miss this one.

in Christ,

Bob