NUTS FOR ARMINIANS TO CRACK

Skan,

According to Genesis 8:21, the hearts of children (and adults) are only inclined to evil. I think it is Biblical to say that children, on one level, are just as depraved as their adult counterparts.

I think Jesus was exorting his disciples to have a simplicity of faith. The Pharisees and Saducees of the day were using complex arguments to catch Jesus in his words and to prove that he is not the Messiah. The human mind is often the enemy of the faith. You can see this today. Look at all the lengths scientists have went through to try to disprove Christianity. Look at all the modern criticisms of the integrity of the Biblical texts. Philosophers have labored to show fallacies within the faith. For a person interested in Christianity, this all can be overwhelming.

Some modern Christians feel the burden to be knowledgeable of complex evidential arguments to convince a person to become a Christian. This is all well and good, but according to Christ, entirely not necessary. We are to be like children and just believe. What do you think?

 

I don't know what to think about this. I guess I'm still interested in theology in general because of issues such as you describe above. I'm just a regular layman (computer programmer), so I feel really ill-equipped many times because I don't have "formal" theological training.

I think of the command to be ready to give answer when I think of all the tough questions that unbelievers might ask of me.

1Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

I don't have all the answers, and unbelievers these days seem to be pretty well educated in what they perceive as flaws in Christian theology.

But then I have to remind myself that back in the day (New Testament times), the big thinkers were pretty sophisticated then too (maybe even more than your average 21st century couch potato). Hellenistic influences and all that philosophical stuff.

Then that, of course, reminds me of 1 Corinthians.

1 Cor 1:17-27
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1 Corinthians chapter 2 is filled with more of the same.

Also, when I get tempted to worry about not having all the answers, I think of Romans 8:26. I mean, we're even incapable of praying properly on our own, but the Spirit helps us.

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

I'm certainly not advocating one purposefully remain ignorant of "complex evidential arguments", and as I say, I always want to learn more. But I'd say that if the Spirit even has to empower us to pray, then the Spirit can handle any "convince a person to become a Christian." situations that may happen to us, despite any lack of smooth debate skill we may have.

 

Layman,

Some good thoughts my friend; I agree with what you say. Here's an example of what I was trying to get at:

I help teach ESL and participate in a Bible study with Chinese atheists. These people are traveling scholars from the mainland and for the most part have never opened a Bible. A few weeks back, one of the group leaders gave an excellent presentation on the history of the Biblical texts. She seemed to prove to the group that the Bible should be accepted as a reliable historical document. Then she asked the group what criteria must be met to accept something as true. We went around in a circle, and everyone gave their opinions, which ranged from the full usage of the scientific method, to multiple whitnesses, emphirical evidence, etc. One lady then said that when she was a small child, she accepted things to be true just because her teacher told her so. She said she had faith in her teacher.


I think this is what Jesus was talking about. Jesus said he was the Son of God and he is the Teacher. If we do not accept this as a child does, then the devil will certainly gain a foothold of doubt in our overly analytical sinful minds. But praise God that He is sovereign:

At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. (Matt. 11:25,26)

Arminianism is false.

 

Exactly, my point! By your very words you admit that children have the inate ability to "just believe." It's only when people "BECOME" futile in their thinking, blinded by their own human philosophies, etc etc that they become hardened, or "unable to see, hear, understand and believe" the truth of the gospel. They certainly aren't born that way by God's design as TD implies. If they were born that way then it wouldn't make any sense for Jesus to use them as examples of ones with the ability to "just believe," now would it?

 

Newton, you fail to understand the first three words of your very own statement quoted here, "At that time..." Think about what was happening "at that time." God was hiding the gospel from the Jews, who would have been considered to be the "wise and learned," and he was revealing it to the Gentiles, who would have been considered as being the ignorant, immature children. And "at that time" Christ had only chosen his apostles to reveal the Father too. It wasn't until he was raised up into heaven that he sent the message for the world to hear. Therefore, Christ did hide the message from the Jews, for they were being temporarily hardened, and he did reveal it to his remnant who in turn preached it to the Gentiles, who were being ingrafted. God had been taking the light to the Jews and they rejected it, now He was taking the light to the Gentiles and hiding it from the Jews. That is the context of these statements. There is NOTHING in the text that would indicate that these words mean God only wants to save some and not others, if that were the case it would contradict passages such as 2 Tim. 2:4, 1 Peter 3:9; Matt. 23:37 etc.

Context is key and thus Calvinism is false.

 

Brother Skandelon,

Good day and greetings.

YOU: Exactly, my point! By your very words you admit that children have the inate ability to "just believe." It's only when people "BECOME" futile in their thinking, blinded by their own human philosophies, etc etc that they become hardened, or "unable to see, hear, understand and believe" the truth of the gospel.

ME: Please examine the following text, then I have a question for you:

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them...
11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth" (Genesis 6:5-7,11-12)

Brother Skandelon, do you think this Genesis passage that states of the human condition of those on earth that , " every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" includes infants? Further, if it were still possible that these same infants had the capability to receive God's word and believe the truth, then why did God want to destroy them as well? Why not simply command Noah to preach the word to the children so they could be spared? Please notice the only person's family he DIDNT destroy was one who was ALREADY regenerated (i.e. Noah, see verses 8-10), why is this?

Saved by grace,

Brother Joe

 

Brother Joe, the population at the time of noah included many innocent children (innocent except for their membership in Adam's race) and they would have been raised in a culture and environment that had become so corrupt they would have been abused and corrupted without any chance of repentance and therefore that evil environment was removed. It is precisely because God wants all people to have a choice that he removed this environment that was taking away their choices.

 

And of course our modern civilizations and societies aren't similar to the day of Noah in the least...right?

Bro. Dallas

Just what is it that one is to believe in order that they become regenerate, and remain regenerate?

Explain that to me so that I can understand the difficulties the Holy Spirit is faced with, then I might be able to understand how I am able to help him.

 

Paul,

Hello and thanks for your reply.

YOU: Brother Joe, the population at the time of noah included many innocent children (innocent except for their membership in Adam's race)

ME: The "except" you put in parentheses is a big one, is it not?

As for the children of the time, they were born with the same nature as scripture teaches we all were ,"Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath even as others" (Ephesians 2:3)


YOU:.... It is precisely because God wants all people to have a choice that he removed this environment that was taking away their choices.

ME: No, I think the reason God did this is for the same reason he will do it again on judgement day, "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience." (Ephesians 5:5-6)

Saved by grace,

Brother Joe

 

I personally believe they did have the capasity, as did Noah and his family, to have faith in God just as those spoken of by Paul in Romans 1 had the capability of knowing, understanding and acknowledging God as their God. They chose not to do that and suffered the consequenses, their children also reaped the wrath of their parents.

You will have to ask God that question. God is sovereign and he can choose to send the message of the gospel to whomever He wills. At this time it is clear that He chose not to have mercy on the sinful people of the world by sending them yet another prophet, but instead he chose to justly display His wrath upon them all, even their children. I've never claimed their was anything unjust in God for doing such things. However, that is not what scripture says God does in the NT. He does have mercy on all mankind by sending the world the message of the cross. Can children believe that message? Of course they can, just as the children in Noah's time could have understood the divine nature and eternal attributes of God and acknowledged Him as their God. As pointed out they were being negatively influenced making them much more blinded by the vices of this world but that has nothing to do with their inborn capability.

 

Joe,

Let me explain something. Arminians don't object to Calvinism because we think it is unjust of God to condemn people to hell from birth. (Some might, but true "Arminians" don't).

We object to the teaching that God desires and calls all men to salvation while not granting all the ability to even respond to that so-called geniune and universal call and then holds them responsible for not responding.

 

Brother Skandelon,

Hi and good to hear from you again.

YOU:I personally believe they did have the capasity, as did Noah and his family, to have faith in God just as those spoken of by Paul in Romans 1 had the capability of knowing, understanding and acknowledging God as their God...


ME: Romans 1 is not talking about man having the "capability" to know the truth of the gospel and denying it, but rather mankind having the capability to know the truth that there is a God and yet choosing to declare atheism or worship idols instead. Please examine the following verses and to see how the latter explanation is the only one that can fit the chapter.

1)Romans 1:20, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

****Brother Skandelon,Is the "truth" of gospel clearly seen in creation and understood by everything that is "made"? No, one has to hear that truth first. But creation DOES bear witness to the "truth" of there being a God.****

2)"Because that, when they knew God, THEY GLORIFIED HIM NOT AS GOD..." (Romans 1:21)

***In verse 21 Paul gives a simple explanation on what he meant in the prior verses 18-19 that stated, "... unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them."

How was it "shewed unto them? Creation bears witness to the existence of God.****

3) "22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who CHANGED THE TRUTH OF GOD INTO A LIE, AND WORSHIPED AND SERVED THE CREATURE RATHER THAN THE CREATOR, who is blessed for ever"

Finally, verse 28 spells out the problem Paul is talking about- rejection of the truth of the gospel that was showed to all mankind? No. Atheism and idol worhippers who, " did not like to retain God in their knowledge"

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Brother Skandelon,

YOU: He does have mercy on all mankind by sending the world the message of the cross. Can children believe that message? Of course they can, just as the children in Noah's time could have understood the divine nature and eternal attributes of God and acknowledged Him as their God.

ME: Yes children can believe the message of the cross- IF they are ALREADY regenerated. Scripture makes is clear that the message of the cross will only be received by those whom God has regenerated, " For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" (1 Corinthians 1:18)

***This verse very clearly says that the preaching of the cross is recieved by "us that ARE (PRESENT TENSE) saved. It also says if your perishing (I believe anyone without the Holy Spirit is currently perishing) then the message will be "foolishness" unto you.****

Dr. R.C. Sproul writes, "Fallen man is flesh. In the flesh he can do nothing to please God.Paul declares, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.So then they that are in the flesh CANNOT please God" (Rom 8:7-8)

"We ask then, "Who are those 'in the flesh'?" Paul goes on to declare, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you." (Rom 8:9)

"God commands us to believe in Christ. He is pleased by those who choose Christ. IF UNREGENERATE PEOPLE COULD CHOOSE CHRIST, THEN THEY WOULD BE SUBJECT TO AT LEAST ONE OF GOD'S COMMANDS AND THEY COULD AT LEAST DO SOMETHING THAT IS PLEASING TO HIM" (Sproul, Chosen By God)

Saved by grace,

Bro Joe

PS- Bro Skandelon, I hope you dont take offense at my use of caps here. I do not know how to use the bold highlighting feature (lol) so I use caps for emphasis. Take care and God bless.

 

Brother Skandelon,

YOU:Let me explain something. Arminians don't object to Calvinism because we think it is unjust of God to condemn people to hell from birth. (Some might, but true "Arminians" don't).

We object to the teaching that God desires and calls all men to salvation while not granting all the ability to even respond to that so-called geniune and universal call and then holds them responsible for not responding.

ME: Brother Skandelon, thanks for the clarification. I must confess it does get confusing. Perhaps I have even unknowingly misrepresented the Arminian position from time to time. Please correct me if I do so! )

UNlike calvnists, most Primitive Baptists (myself included) do not believe the call of the gospel is an offer to eternal salvation nor we believe it is offered to all men. For an explanation of our doctrine, if interested, feel free to read the following link by Michael Gowens entitled "Temporal Salvation- A Bogus or Biblical Concept" Reading it is one of the things that greatly influenced me to change my whole outlook on the gospel and played a crucial role in my decision to join the church.

Im growing lazy on my typing, but will be happy to answer any questions you may have regarding the article...sorry lol.

http://www.sovgrace.net/TimeSalvation.pdf


While enjoying reading and quoting the works of many of our calvnist brethern here often, I do respectfully disagree with them in a few important important doctrinal issues. The one you mentioned is one of them. I find their view to be logically inconsistent, afterall, if God didnt pay for a persons sins on the cross, why would you offer the gospel of forgiveness to one whom it doesnt apply?

Take care and good night.


Brother Joe

 

So you don't believe the gospel was sent for everyone to hear?

What about John 3:16 and the word "whosoever will" and other such passages that speak of God calling all the world to repentance. "Go into all the world and preach the gospel" etc??

It is overwhelming passages such as these that lead most Calvinists to confirm that the call of the gospel is truly universal. How can that be denied? Many lost people have been called to repentance by the gospel and have died in their unbelief. The gospel called them regardless of their response to that call. He came to seek and to save that which was lost. Are reprobates not lost?

 

Dear Skandelon,
The significance, in my opinion, is that we cannot see the inward call or response of the heart. Only God sends forth the call to repentance and it cannot be shown that a repentant person did not previously believe or else what do they have for reason to repent?

There must be at the very least, a belief in the condemnation for the unrepentant, wouldn't you agree?

This belief is present and is given in regeneration and the gospel is a call to 'conversion' which is not meant to be understood as eternal life.

conversion (or better 'converted' as Christ spoke to Peter prior to Peter's denial) represents not the passing from death unto life, but really a 'coming back' or coming to Christ that is the gospel message.

Eternal life is granted to whom the Son grants it.

We are fortunate enough to be able to see fruits of this which provides evidence to us of the inward working of the Holy Spirit to 'work' out through fear and trembling the life that is in the child of God.

God does not play the games of men, offering a yoke which we are unable to bear.

Your post explaining Calvinism is why I do not consider myself a Calvinist.

You quote: "He came to seek and to save that which was lost."

Well, which part of this work has he or will he fail at?

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• 1. Will he fail to seek?</font>
• 2. Will he fail to save?</font>

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

Dallas,

The gospel is sent to everyone, period.

You have created a falacy of reason here Dallas.

Let me explain. Does God want you to obey him? Of course he does. Do you always obey him? Of course you don't . So according to your reason God failed. You seem to miss the variable that God sovereignly left in the mix. That is human volition. You have a choice. If you don't then God might as well have caused the rocks the cry out in the first place. We are not rocks and we are not animals. We are thinking, reasoning, and decerning beings who God instilled a conscience and the ability to choose within. To deny that is to deny scriptures most basic teachings.

 

Brother Skandelon:

YOU: So you don't believe the gospel was sent for everyone to hear?

ME: I do not believe the gospel is a call extended to everyone who hears, but only a call to service for the elect.

YOU:What about John 3:16 and the word "whosoever will" and other such passages that speak of God calling all the world to repentance. "Go into all the world and preach the gospel" etc??

ME: Brother Skandelon, because of time constraints this will be my only post to you tonight, I know it is lengthy, but I ask that you please take time to read it. Take care and have a good evening.

Michael Gowens in Basic Bible doctrine,"The Jews had for 1500 years, had a corner on God. They were privy to... special revelation to which the Gentiles had no claim. The exclusiveness of religious privelage in the Old Testament had caused many Jewish people (as well as Gentile people) to conclude that God would never bless, love, or save anyone but the Jews. A fundamental need existed in the early church, therefore, to emphasize the international scope of the gospel.Language such as,"There is neither Jew nor Greek, bond or free, male or female" must be understood in terms of hte radical cultural change that Christianity had introduced into a previously racially biased and religiously segregated world. To the Jews, this was "a big pill to swallow." (Remember how shocked Peter was when God revealed to him that the gentiles were to be included in the offer of salvation in the book of Acts?) The basic message of the early church was simply this: "God has a people among the Gentiles as well as the Jews. The Jewish Messiah, Jesus Christ the Lord, is also the Gentile savior and now, since he has come, God has made the good news of salvation, which was once restricted to the Jews alone, available to his people among the Gentiles as well, so that now, both Jew and Gentile may worship and serve God in a new coventant"

Take for example this passage, "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

"The world for whom Christ died cannot mean the entire human family. It must refer to the universality of the elect (people from every tribe and nation) OR TO THE INCLUSION OF GENTILES IN ADDITION TO THE WORLD OF JEWS. It was a jew who wrote that Jesus did not die merely for OUR sins but for the sins of the whole world. Does the word OUR refer to believers or believing Jews? We must remember that one of the cardinal points of the New Testament concerned the inclusion of the Gentiles in Gods' plan of salvation" (Sproul, Chosen By God)

Saved by grace,

Brother Joe

 

Sorry for post, have to repost later, computer difficulties. Not technical difficulties, only computer difficulties :D

 

Brother Dallas,

YOU:Sorry for post, have to repost later, computer difficulties. Not technical difficulties, only computer difficulties

ME: perhaps your computer is "reprobate?" Just kidding.

Brother Joe