NUTS FOR ARMINIANS TO CRACK

Dear Yelsew2,
Please tell me from scripture alone if God created all creatures, man included, as herbivores or meat eaters, in the beginning.

Bro. Dallas

 

BBNewton,

Well sir Please answer these questions for me:

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• What did God create and place in the Garden?</font>
• Who are the scriptures written to?</font>
• What species is religion all about?</font>
• What was it that Jesus came for?</font>
• What form did Jesus come in?</font>
• Who is prophesy intended for?</font>
• What species has a "church"?</font>

I think you get the message. RELIGION is all about man. No other species has RELIGION!

RELIGION is Man's attempt to define purpose for existance. And Yes, God is the Center of it ALL. WHAT is GOD? We men struggle all our lives to determine that, and then we die not knowing, but only hoping (having or not having faith).

So my friend whether you accept the truth of not is up to you, but it's all about man! God didn't need us from all eternity past, and He doesn't need us now, and he doesn't need us in eternity to come. BUT, we certainly do need HIM!

 

Just looking for a scriptural only response.

 

Why does Christ say that a child is more fit for heaven than an adult when he says we must become like a child to enter heaven? You show me the answer to that question and I'll show you the answer to your question.

And how does that contradict scripture. "Without faith its impossible to please God..." "How then can we be save? Repent and believe." "...the promised Holy Spirit comes through faith." "We are saved by grace through faith..." Regardless of what Calvinists say the scripture is clear that there is a condition man must meet to enter covenant with God. You can argue that God is the one who causes us to irresistably meet that requirement if you want to, but it doesn't change the fact that the requirement MUST be met. That requirement is faith and faith cometh through hearing the message.

You can argue that election is unconditional all day long and I'll agree with you (though we view election differently). But you cannot argue that salvation itself is unconditional. There is a condition that must be met and that condition is faith. If you define faith as a deed, then you must teach that we are save by grace through works. The scripture never defines faith as a work, in fact the scripture holds them in contrast to eachother. Why? Is it because men pursue one and not the other? No, because Romans 9 tells us quite the opposite, men pursue righteousness through the law and through faith but only those who pursue it through faith attain it.

The bottom line is this: Faith is a condition for salvation. If you don't like that then you need to take it up with the Bible because it is clearly taught.

If someone chooses not to recieve the clearly revealed truth of scripture they are responsible, because they had everything they needed to accept it and be saved.

Actually those in John 8 had believed read verse 30 and 31.

What you fail to recongize Newton is that Jesus hadn't granted anyone the ability to come to him during those days except for the remnant, the firstfruits, the apostles. These are the Jews chosen from all the rest to take the message to the world. " The rest were hardened." Even those who were believing he was driving away John 2:21. Why? Because he didn't want them to be saved? NO!!!!! Because he hadn't chosen them for salvation? NO!!!!!! Matt. 23:37, 1 Peter 3:9, 2 Tim 2:4 all confirm God's desire and willingness to save these Jews. In fact, Paul expects some of those who are hardened to be provoked by envy and saved (Romans 11:14). So why do you think that Jesus, who desires to save these men, would say these things to them? Think real hard. What does Christ need to accomplish? The Jews have been sealed in their unbelief so as to accomplish his purpose in bringing redemption. The Jews crucified Christ and according to Paul there unbelief made a path for the ingrafting of the Gentiles. This in turn was meant to provoke the Jews to envy so that they too would leave their unbelief and be saved. Christ desire in hardening them and shutting them out is ultimately to bring them redemption.

 

By mixing and matching we can convince one another we should rise up early, cut off our hands and go out and hang ourselves.

All in the same day even.

Bro. Dallas

What else does Hebrews 11.6 say? Is there an order of regeneration/faith or faith/regeneration given there? If so, offer proof.

 

Just looking for a scriptural only response. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not entirely sure that can be proven in scripture! You see the Americas are not identified in scripture! The whole of Africa is not Identified in scripture. Neither is China or India or Australia, or Antarctica, Greenland, Iceland, Southeast Asia, etc. Yet one must believe they exist as the result of Creation because we have no scripture that says they were subsequently created.

Bears are not mentioned as part of Creation, except as a class of creature, in the way that most other creatures are identified by the manner in which they walk or the environment in which they live.

Fish are meat eaters by design. They always have been, you know the food chain story of which Humans seem to be the top. Aligators are meat eaters, and probably were created as such.

So Bro. Dallas, I'm not sure there is anything to be gained by searching for proof that you want!

 

Brother Dallas,

YOU: Thanks Brother Joe. I respect your belief as well. Note, I did not require a man to be the 'gospel preacher'.

But, this is not reason enough to cause me any distress with any. This is how I have personally resolved the question of infants and the mentally incapable

ME: Point taken!

Brother Joe

 

Brother YELSEW WROTE: By making the claims you, the Calvinist, the PB and others do against man you are making those claims against God who made us! Surely that does not please the God! Because such claims, that you state, raise you to the level of Judge.

ME: Is it just me, or does anyone else in this discussion feel as if we are like Job, his three friends, and the fourth gentleman who went on and on day and night arguing theology and each telling the other they are wrong lol!!???

Brother Joe

 

Brother Yelsew,

I hope you had an enjoyable day.

YOU: By making the claims you, the Calvinist, the PB and others do against man you are making those claims against God who made us!

ME: Just out of curiosity (not that it really matters), but Brother Yelsew, based upon what Brothre Dallas, Brother BBNewton, and I have posted...would you consider US saved, even though our doctrines differ from yours?

Love in Christ,

Brother Joe

 

Brother Yelsew,

YOU: Granted, man is confined to the place where creator God placed him, but he is not confined to the condition that men like you and frogman consign him to! Man remains God's prize creation, man retains dominion over the rest of God's creation. NOTHING CHANGED except that man sinned, and all men since have a propensity to do the same. The result is a broken relationship with the creator God, who has since been redeeming those men to Him who have faith IN HIM!

ME: Does every man have the exact same nature spiritually?

Brother Joe

 

Brother Skandelon,

YOU:Why does Christ say that a child is more fit for heaven than an adult when he says we must become like a child to enter heaven? You show me the answer to that question and I'll show you the answer to your question.


ME: You are misquoting scripture by omitting the words that follow the word "enter" in this verse. Jesus never said you must be like a child to enter "heaven." Here is the verse and what it actually says:

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the KINGDOM of heaven." (Matthew 18:3)

You left out the words "kindom of" heaven and simply put heaven. Is such a distinguishment just nit picking words by me? No and ill explain why.

Does the word "kindgom" always mean heaven in the Bible? No.It has multiple meanings. For example we read, "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the KINGDOM OF GOD should come, he answered them and said, The KINGDOM OF GOD cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU." (Luke 17:20-21)

And again,
"For the KINGDOM OF GOD IS NOT meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." (Romans 14:17)


Judging by the meaning of the word "Kingdom" in the scriptures above, isnt it very possible our Lord could simply be meaning if one does not have the attitude of a child he will not enjoy the abundant life on earth?

Saved by grace,

Brother Joe

 

Just looking for a scriptural only response. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not entirely sure that can be proven in scripture! You see the Americas are not identified in scripture! The whole of Africa is not Identified in scripture. Neither is China or India or Australia, or Antarctica, Greenland, Iceland, Southeast Asia, etc. Yet one must believe they exist as the result of Creation because we have no scripture that says they were subsequently created.

Bears are not mentioned as part of Creation, except as a class of creature, in the way that most other creatures are identified by the manner in which they walk or the environment in which they live.

Fish are meat eaters by design. They always have been, you know the food chain story of which Humans seem to be the top. Aligators are meat eaters, and probably were created as such.

So Bro. Dallas, I'm not sure there is anything to be gained by searching for proof that you want! </font>[/QUOTE]Did you look?

Dear Brother Yelsew2,

Concerning that which was originally given to all created beings for meat.

Beginning with Genesis 1.27 (the creation of man and woman).

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Now, in vss. 29 and 30 you will note that God gave every green thing for both man and beast to eat, and note also that the scripture says that it was so.

Also note vs. 31, one that you have focused your belief system around. Note this is recorded as the present condition on the sixth day, the day before the seventh day in which God separated (sanctified) from all the days of his labor and he rested.

Now, remember Jesus defended healing a man on the sabbath because he said his Father worked hitherto and he too worked, just the same.

Have you ever wondered what Jesus meant when he said that his Father worked hitherto?

I have often wondered this. I believe it is no harm to scripture to note that at the end of ch. 2 in Genesis is another scenario of the creation of man and woman, transitioning into the 3rd chapter with vs. 25 (Note that the original manuscripts did not have chapter and vs divisions and that what ever is found in the KJV in italics is added in the English translation to strengthen the understanding of the passage, but is lacking in the originals and could be understood without harm to 'doctrine' if left off in the KJV imho. I say this even though I consider myself KJVO). But note how the man and woman are in ch. 1.31 declared along with all other creation 'very good', and in 2.25 they are said to be naked and not ashamed, then in 3.8, 10 & 11 they are shamed by their nakedness. IN vs. 7 Adam works with his own hands to provide a fig leave covering (H2290
חגרה חגורה חגר חגור
chăgôr chăgôr chăgôrâh chăgôrâh
(1,2) khag-ore', (3,4) khag-o-raw'
From H2296; a belt (for the waist): - apron, armour, gird (-le). follow this on out to its root and you have H2296
חגר
châgar
khaw-gar'
A primitive root; to gird on (as a belt, armor, etc.): - be able to put on, be afraid, appointed, gird, restrain, X on every side.)

First, note how Adam (man) more than just a name, is providing his own 'covering' the KJV Bible I have in my lap says in the margin "girding coverings' a covering is what the atonement is, see how the man is trying to 'restrain' his nakedness 'on every side'? With the fig leaves covering his 'physical' nakedness, what is there left to be restrained?

In the presence of God, who already knew the nakedness of the man and the woman, there was a need for the covering (atonement) because of the nakedness of their sin which they could no longer restrain and was spilling out on every side before them.

(Along with this, note the provision of God in ch. 3.21---the beautiful completion to the promised seed of 3.15).

But, note the differences in the fig leaf covering Adam (man) provided of his own hands and that of God's hands. In the first there is a seam, the man sowed his together, in the one from God there is no seam, there is no mention of 'sewing' at all. compare this then to the garment the soldeirs cast lots over. This brings us back to the saying of Christ in defense of his healing on the sabbath, The last day mentioned here in Genesis 1 is the sixth day, then chapter 2 straight into the sabbath day of sanctified rest, then straight into chapter three and the fall from the original righteousness of man, oh, but how the Bible most certainly everywhere from beginning to end teaches me that man is but dust, no more than a worm, and so depraved that he will cover himself, he will hide himself, he will do every thing, but he will not come to Christ for cover because of his nakedness.

So, then you see, the original nature of even the alligator could not have been to eat meat, nor that of the bear (or what ever class of animal he is) nor the lion, nor the tiger, nor, nor, nor, but to all was given the green herb for meat, yes even to the fishes of the sea and also to man.

So, next time you want to discuss the extent of the fall of the nature of man, note the bloodthirsty nature that has entered into the creation of God, that on the sixth day is certainly pronounced 'very good' but by the cool of the day of the seventh day he fell from that position and pulled the whole of creation along with him, unwittingly, but nonetheless fallen (Romans 8.19-23) and oh, don't undersell the extent to which the glory of the redemption of this old body is gonna be, so much higher than the angels by virtue of the Son who has a better name than the angels.

Now, what of your worry with the continents?

Have you in your scientific endeavors never heard of the 'theory' of continental drift? Now, tell me where the Bible says more than that God created the dry land and the heavens above and that he commanded the waters to all gather together in one place? Gen. 1.6-10 is a good place to start.

Oh, but wait you may say, the continents are not joined good sir. Well, if you did say that I would agree, by virtue of the truth that is, I must always agree with that which is so obviously the truth.

Let us look on further, moving to the 6th chapter of the book of Genesis what do we learn?

There is a judgment due upon the earth, a flood of waters and the heavens opening up to aid the wells of the deep to overcome the dry land. This is isolated? And cannot be shown to have separated the continents you interject? Perhaps so, Perhaps so, but let us look some more yet.

Into Genesis 10.25 in the geneology of Seth: there is one born to E'-ber whose name was Pe'-leg: for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Jok'-tan.

So, who is to say that the 'new world' existed at creation, the Americas, Africa, the continent of Asia, all one called 'dry land' or simply earth.

Dear Brother, I did all this with only the use of my KJV Bible and a Strong's concordance. I have never seen anyone else's comments upon 'Pe'-leg or the division of the earth. I will not be dogmatic about it casting any who disagree into outer darkness, but I can be realistic and see that it is very possible and imho, very highly likely that from the first, the earth was simply the earth.

But, please, consider how that the nature of man and even beast has changed as a direct consequence of the fall. (I left it out, but note that between Ch. 1 & 2's records of creation, Cha. 3's record of the fall and expulsion of man from the Garden (the presence of the tree of life, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:) there is no reproduction of mankind until after these events and found first recorded in ch. 4.

Dear Brother,
May God Richly Bless you to see the glorious truth of His salvation provided by Grace alone through the covering of HIS Righteousness, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

Originally posted by BBNewton:

Thanks, Pray for me for greater humility and more Grace. Just like the old Puritan debater, scribbling on his notepad throughout the debate, all became more interested in seeing his notes than any thing else. At the end of it when asked what he kept writing he replied, "More Grace, Lord, More Grace".

His Grace is Sufficient.

Bro. Dallas

 

I guess it could mean that but then it wouldn't make much sense within the context in which it was written. But hey, as Dallas pointed out, anyone can make the scripture say whatever they want it to say.

I could understand how someone might argue your point if it said, "Kingdom of God" but it actually says "heaven." What else could he be talking about? You can't enter this world unless you become like a child? They are already in the world. So that can't be it. The point is they must become "like" a child and my question is this: What quality does a child possess that adults do not in which Christ points to as being a quality making us fit to enter the place He has prepared for us to enter? If you can answer that, then you've got the answer to the previous question to which I was responding.

 

Dear Brethren,
I am of the opinion that the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are two different aspects of which I am confident to learn much more in the future.

Dear Brother Skandelon,
I am also of the opinion (of which is my belief) the kingdom of heaven will be entered into in accordance with what you present. This again as I believe is a period of rewards and not speaking of eternal life.

Bro. Dallas

 

Do you believe in Jesus, and that he is the Son of God, and that he is the messiah?

If YES? You have received the promise of Salvation.

If NO? You have not!

Now you must retain that belief through the first death, the death of this natural body in order to realize the reality that is promised. If you die from the flesh lacking such faith, you will not pass from death into life everlasting, but will instead face the second death!

 

Every man has the same propensity to sin!

 

Brother Skandelon,

Good morning.

YOU: I guess it could mean that but then it wouldn't make much sense within the context in which it was written. But hey, as Dallas pointed out, anyone can make the scripture say whatever they want it to say.

I could understand how someone might argue your point if it said, "Kingdom of God" but it actually says "heaven." What else could he be talking about?

ME: I see your point about the possible difference between "kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God." However, I still hold that it is at least possible that kingdom of heaven could still mean on this earth. Why? Remember Jesus himself, " began to preach and say Repent, for the kingdom of heaven IS AT HAND" (Matthew 4:17) Since jesus said it "is at hand", I believe this would tend to support the view that kingdom of heaven can be enjoyed on earth via the Holy Spirit. However, I am not dogmatic on wether it means heaven or the "fruit of the Holy spirit." Your interpretation could perhaps fit as well.

Saved by grace,

Brother Joe

 

Brother Skandelon,

YOU: What else could he be talking about? You can't enter this world unless you become like a child? They are already in the world. So that can't be it. The point is they must become "like" a child and my question is this: What quality does a child possess that adults do not in which Christ points to as being a quality making us fit to enter the place He has prepared for us to enter? If you can answer that, then you've got the answer to the previous question to which I was responding.

ME: Lets approach the verse from the standpoint that kingdom of heaven DOES in fact mean heaven itself. Once again, here is the verse:

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the KINGDOM of heaven." (Matthew 18:3)

Now you responded above to this verse by proclaiming, "What else could he be talking about? You can't enter this world unless you become like a child? They are already in the world. So that can't be it." Now, compare how you responded to Nicodemus's response to a similar statement of Jesus's,"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the KINGDOM of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him,*** How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born"*** (John 3:3-4)

Dont you find a striking similarity between the verses under discussion in Matthew and those I quoted in John. Also notice, you and Nicodemus responded nearly identical to Jesus! And finally, we see our key word "kindgom" appearing again in these verses! Now here is the answer you have been waiting for, I will not give it, for our Lord has already given it (pay special attention to verse 8). He responds to Nicodemus's question, " 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the KINGDOM of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8***** The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.***
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?" (John 3:5-9)

So we see from verse 5 man does in fact have to become a child again. And verse 8 tells us how this is done- by the quickening power of the Holy Spirit that is not visibile or apparent when it occurs, thus he compairs it to the wind which we cannot see. In conclusion, Yes man does have to become a child again (i.e. be born again), and just like we had no role in being born the first time we had no role in us being born the 2nd time. All glory to God almighty!

If you think I have answered you sufficiently, please now answer the other question. If not, hey you sure cant say I didnt try lol!!

Saved by grace,

Brother Joe

 

Brother Yelsew,

Hello.

YOU:Do you believe in Jesus, and that he is the Son of God, and that he is the messiah?

If YES? You have received the promise of Salvation.

If NO? You have not!

ME: Yes I believe both thus I am your brother in Christ.

YOU: Now you must retain that belief through the first death, the death of this natural body in order to realize the reality that is promised. If you die from the flesh lacking such faith, you will not pass from death into life everlasting, but will instead face the second death!

ME: Since when can someone be born the brother to another and then cease to be?

Also doesnt your statement that we must "retain that belief" or "face the 2nd death" directly contradicts this scripture, "IF WE BELIEVE NOT, YET HE ABIDETH FAITHFUL: he cannot deny himself. Of these things put them in remembrance..." (2 Timothy 2:13-14)

Your brother in Christ,

Brother Joe