Oh Pagan Tree

You are confusing worldliness with idolatry. Anything that comes between you and God is an idol. That is not what worldliness is. Worldliness is imitating the world; being conformed to what the world does in opposition to being conformed to the image of Christ. One must make the decision which way they are going to be pulled--the way of the world or the way of Christ. It affects every area of our life--the music we listen to, the way we dress, the places we go, the we we speak to others, the way we conduct ourselves, our consistency and faithfulness at church, our consistency and faithfulness in our own Christian walk, and a multitude of other things that all in all reflect Christ living in us. How do Christians reflect Christ? By imitating the world or imitating Christ? That is the question. I have given you two Scriptures to consider (James 4:4 and 1John 2:15,16). Now consider:

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
--The Bible has much to say about not being conformed to the world; not being moulded to it or by it. But rather:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

It is a matter of holiness vs. worldliness. One must choose what kind of lifestyle he or she is going to reflect in this world: one that is going to reflect the world, or one that is going to reflect Christ. When you leave the door of your house, can others tell that you are a Christian? If so, how? If not, why not?

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
--We are chosen, royal, holy, peculiar or different. And our purpose is the opposite of imitating the world; it is to show forth the praises of Him who has called out od darkness into his marvelous light.
[quote[Do you drive a car? Very worldly. Do you ever read a book? Well, pagans do too. Do you have a wedding ring on? Yeah - TOTALLY pagan.[/quote]
This is non sequitor. It is a red herring and has nothing to do either with the subject or even the verses at hand. Did John, James, or Paul have cars? Obviously the subject wasn't about cars. But over and over again they were warned about trees, as is indicated in Jer.10, with the command "Learn not the way of the heathen (whether or not they were worshiped).

The word grove or groves is used 42 times in the Bible. Most of those times it is used in connection with Baal worship or the worship of idols. Even when the Israelites did not worship those groves of trees, they were told to cut them down. Why? They were connected to idolatrous worship.

For example:
Judges 6:25 And it came to pass the same night, that the LORD said unto him, Take thy father's young bullock, even the second bullock of seven years old, and throw down the altar of Baal that thy father hath, and cut down the grove that is by it:
--Gideon had never worshiped Baal. But he went down and cut down the grove that was connected to Baal worship.

Cars have nothing to do with worship. They have nothing to do with religion at all. For some they are a necessity in our society. Two days ago (where I live) it was minus 30 with an windchill of minus 40. I had a friend who recently passed away, and his family lives 25 miles from the city on an acreage. We went there to comfort the family. I cannot walk 25 miles in minus 40 degree weather. The Israelites never faced those types of conditions. I don't worship a car (idolatry); neither is it "of the world" to have one. It is a necessity. You are way off the beaten path.

The fact that you don't care says a lot.

I never suggested that you celebrate Satan, etc. You are allowing your emotions to get in your way. Celebrating "Christmas" with all its oranmental decorations is sentimental tradition. It is an emotional attachment without any Biblical basis to the celebration of the birth of Christ. It is a cheap imitation of the ways of the world. It is "deck the halls with balls of holly," type of Christmas which has nothing to do with the birth of Christ.

Emotions get in the way of clear thinking. When people get emotionally attached to things they don't want to give up, even if they are against the Bible, they will do anything to defend them. It becomes an emotional argument as is evidenced on this thread.

Then why do you choose to imitate the world in your celebration of the birth of Christ? Nothing wrong with celebrating the birth of Christ. Why can't it be done without all the world's gaudiness, secularism, commercialism, etc. Why can't it just center on Christ and Him alone. It seems to center around a tree instead of Christ. What a pity!

God says not to be conformed to this world.
God says to be conformed to the image of His Son.
The Bible says that we are known by our fruit. Is our fruit the gaudiness of commercialism, or the true worship of Christ without all the frivolous trivialities of what the world does in their celebration of a god that they don't even know.

You are right. You have that freedom. But do you have the freedom to be so like the world that the world can't tell if you are a Christian or not a Christian.

I do not place my Christmas tree, my nativity scene or anything else I own or do over Christ.[/quote]
I didn't say you did. I am not charging you with idolatry. That is a different subject.

You need to study what the Scriptures teach on what it means to be holy versus what it means to be worldly.

 

Oh, so you mean the Orthodox, then! They and the Catholics were the only Christian show in town for at least the first millenium...unless of course you have been drinking the Trail of Blood Kool-aid....please tell me you haven't - there have been enough 'foil hat' views expressed on this thread already:eek:

[PS I don't know anyone, Christian or otherwise, who worships a Christmas tree...so I'm not quite sure who's supposed to be doing all this idolatry. Maybe they're a bit strange down your way, but none of that stuff happens round here]

 

Matt, you forget that there were baptist that were dispersed in many "real" christian churches before 300 AD. There has been a conserted effort by the minority heretics that came to power during Constantine because of his Milan Edict tollerating only heretical churches. The very fact that there aren't any recorded evidence of the early baptist existed(at all in recorded history or by pottery or by building ruins or by any markings and no one ever mentions their existence in all the other historical commentaries) is because the RCC burned every evidence of them and destroyed their meeting places until Luther was able to enact the reformation which allowed them to come out from hidding. You just need to study history from no evidence.

;)

 

Actually that is revisionist history as produced by the RCC. Here is some of the 'real' history. (But it doesn't even mention the fourth great branch of the Living Church of Messiah Jesus - the Cyptic Church of Egypt. BTW, both the Coptic and East Syrian /see below/ Churches had their own Bible, very much like ours, I might add).

In the year 1001 there were numerous pilgrimages to the
Holy Land from Europe, Africa, and India to
celebrate the start of the second Millennium.
That year the largest Christian Church was the
East Syrian (Nestorian).
This church, the Catholic Apostolic Church of the East,
had over 250 dioceses across Asia and
12 million adherents. More saints were commanded by this
church than the Bishop of Rome (Pope, the Roman
Catholic Church or the
Bishop of Constantinople/Patriarch of Antioch (Orthodox
Catholic Apostolic Church, AKA: Easter Orthodox). By 1051 the
Patriarch of Antioch and the Bishop of Rome excommunicated
the bishops, priests, and members each of the group.

During the next 200 years the Catholic Apostolic Church
of the East was crushed between the Mongols of the
East and the Muslim from the Southwest.

Needless to say, it is NOT in the best interests of
the Papists to have that information be of general knowledge.

NESTORIANS:

from: http://mb-soft.com/believe/txw/eastern.htm

The Nestorians are now only a pitiful remnant of what was once a great Church. Long before the heresy from which they have their name, there was a flourishing Christian community in Chaldea and Mesopotamia. According to their tradition it was founded by Addai and Mari (Addeus and Maris), two of the seventy-two Disciples. The present Nestorians count Mar Mari as the first Bishop of Ctesiphon and predecessor of their patriarch. In any case this community was originally subject to the Patriarch of Antioch. As his vicar, the metropolitan of the twin-cities of Seleucia and Ctesiphon (on either side of the Tigris, north-east of Babylon) bore the title of catholicos. One of these metropolitans was present at the Council of Nicaea in 325. The great distance of this Church from Antioch led in early times to a state of semi-independence that prepared the way for the later schism. Already in the fourth century the Patriarch of Antioch waived his right of ordaining the catholicos of Seleucia-Ctesiphon, and allowed him to be ordained by his own suffragans. In view of the great importance of the right of ordaining, as a sign of jurisdiction throughout the East, this fact is important. But it does not seem that real independence of Antioch was acknowledged or even claimed till after the schism. In the fifth century the influence of the famous Theodore of Mopsuestia and that of his school of Edessa spread the heresy of Nestorius throughout this extreme Eastern Church. Naturally, the later Nestorians deny that their fathers accepted any new doctrine at that time, and they claim that Nestorius learned from them rather than they from him ("Nestorius eos secutus est, non ipsi Nestorium", Ebed-Jesu of Nisibis, about 1300. Assemani, "Bibli. Orient.", III, 1, 355). There may be truth in this. Theodore and his school had certainly prepared the way for Nestorius. In any case the rejection of the Council of Ephesus (431) by these Christians in Chaldea and Mesopotamia produced a schism between them and the rest of Christendom. When Babaeus, himself a Nestorian, became catholicos, in 498, there were practically no more Catholics in those parts. From Ctesiphon the Faith had spread across the frontier into Persia, even before that city was conquered bythe Persian king (244). The Persian Church, then, always depended on Ctesiphon and shared its heresy. From the fifth century this most remote of the Eastern Churches has been cut off from the rest of Christendom, and till modern times was the most separate and forgotten community of all. Shut out from the Roman Empire (Zeno closed the school of Edessa in 489), but, for a time at least, protected by the Persian kings, the Nestorian Church flourished around Ctesiphon, Nisibis (where the school was reorganized), and throughout Persia. Since the schism the catholicos occasionally assumed the title of patriarch. The Church then spread towards the East and sent missionaries to India and even China. A Nestorian inscription of the year 781 has been found at Singan Fu in China (J. Heller, S.J., "Prolegomena zu einer neuen Ausgabe der nestorianischen Inschrift von Singan Fu", in the "Verhandlungen des VII. internationalen Orientalistencongresses", Vienna, 1886, pp. 37 sp.). Its greatest extent was in the eleventh century, when twenty-five metropolitans obeyed the Nestorian patriarch. But since the end of the fourteenth century it has gradually sunk to a very small sect, first, because of a fierce persecution by the Mongols (Timur Leng), and then through internal disputes and schisms. Two great schisms as to the patriarchal succession in the sixteenth century led to a reunion of part of the Nestorian Church with Rome, forming the Catholic Chaldean Church. At present there are about 150,000 Nestorians living chiefly in highlands west of Lake Urumiah. They speak a modern dialect of Syriac. The patriarchate descends from uncle to nephew, or to younger brothers, in the family of Mama; each patriarch bears the name Simon (Mar Shimun) as a title. Ignoring the Second General Council, and of course strongly opposed to the Third (Ephesus), they only acknowledge the First Nicene (325). They have a Creed of their own, formed from an old Antiochene Creed, which does not contain any trace of the particular heresy from which their Church is named. In deed it is difficult to say how far any Nestorians now are conscious of the particular teaching condemned by the Council of Ephesus, though they still honour Nestorius, Theodore of Mopsuestia, and other undoubted heretics as saints and doctors. The patriarch rules over twelve other bishops (the list in Silbernagl, "Verfassung", p. 267). Their hierarchy consists of the patriarch, metropolitans, bishops, chorepiscopi, archdeacons, priests, deacons, subdeacons, and readers. There are also many monasteries. They use Syriac liturgically written in their own (Nestorian) form of the alphabet. The patriarch, who now generally calls himself "Patriarch of the East", resides at Kochanes, a remote valley of the Kurdish mountains by the Zab, on the frontier between Persia and Turkey. He has an undefined political jurisdiction over his people, though he does not receive a berat from the Sultan. In any ways this most remote Church stands alone; it has kept a number of curious and archaic customs (such as the perpetual abstinence of the patriarch, etc.) that separate it from other Eastern Churches almost as much as from those of the West. Lately the Archbishop of Canterbury's mission to the Nestorians has aroused a certain interest about them in England.


BTW, I'm a Baptist and think the priest of each household (male usually) should determine what to do about Bringing Christmas Trees into the house. Personally I worship G-d in the name of Messiah Yeshua right in front of a decorated & lit tree. My tree is plastic but my worship of G-d is real.

 

the reminants of Nestorius churches (which you are right were quiet numerous in the east is the Assyrian Church. Nestorius though (as protestants would appreciate) did not like the term Theotokos but wanted to use the term Christokos. The reason Nestorius had in the problem was his views of the Nature of Christ. Couldn't quite reconcile with the Orthodox view of Christ having the divine and the human yet the same person of the trinity. Though I do blame a lot of the nonsense on the bishop of Alexandria.
BTW you write G-d like the Jews. Any particular reason for that?

 

I think it has nothing to do with this subject.
You do not esteem December 25th. I enjoy December 25th and all that surrounds it. I give glory to God in all that I do. If you think I'm worldly because I celebrate Christmas, so be it. I think you're being very judgmental and tending towards legalism. I have freedom in Christ to celebrate Him as I wish. Yes, I follow the traditions of Christmas - just as much as I follow other traditions. But that doesn't mean one thing in my relationship to Christ. [/quote]
I am not against celebrating the birth of Christ, or even celebrating the birth of Christ on December 25. I am against the way it is celebrated.
The imitation of the world: its gaudiness, its commercialism, and even its wickedness is all aped by our own Christian community. Let me give you a personal illustration.

My extended family are Catholic (and they all believe that they are Christians).
At this time of year:
1. They will drink more booze than at any other time of the year.
2. They will attend more parties than at any other time of the year.
3. They will put up more decorations in their house than at any other time of the year.
4. They will be more religious than at any other time of the year.
5. They will eat, drink, and be merry more than at any other time of the year.
6. And among them all this is the greatest probability where one of them will suffer a serious accident more than any other time of the year.

The Bible says: Learn not the way of the heathen (the unsaved).
Why is it that Christians want to copy all the same wickedness and ungodly lifestyle of the unsaved. "Be not conformed to this world," the Bible says.

Every year we have a family reunion at one of my siblings house. I come from a large family. Last year they suggested that they have the reunion at our house. I agreed with one stipulation: There would be absolutely no booze at my house. Some of them were offended and the reunion was canceled last year.

The gospel offends. Living a holy life offends. Being separated from the world offends. But that is the way that Christ wants us to live. "Be ye holy for I am holy."
So, set up your tree and decorate your house, and live like the rest of the world. But remember, it has nothing to do with the worship of Christ.

And for the same reason we don't celebrate Hallowe'en, or even substitute another holiday for it. We separate ourselves from the wickedness of the celebration. Is it so difficult to see what the Bible says: come out from them and be ye separate saith the Lord?

You are absolutely wrong in this red herring of yours.
My wife wears a wedding ring to show that she belongs to me and to demonstrate that she is not available to others. In our culture that is what the significance is. When you go out without your wedding ring you are sending a message to others that you are available. The ring is a message that you belong to someone--your husband.
In strict and extreme Islamic nations they have another way of showing the same thing. Their women must wear a burkah. Aren't you glad our custom, in our society is simply that of a ring. There are such customs noted in the Bible as well:

Genesis 38:14 And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife.
--Tamar had the garments of a widow, clothing that showed that she had been married. Everyone knew that she had been married by the way she dressed.
She put those away and put on other raiment--the clothing that would signify that she was now a prostitute, available for sex. Any man passing by would know that she was the "harlot" of the town.

And that is what Judah thought:
Genesis 38:15 When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face.

Have you dropped into a department store lately? What is Christmas all about? Santa Clause? Commercialism? Christmas Trees? Making money? Decorations? Everything but Christ! No, Christmas is not about Christ. That is why many prefer to call in Xmas, for there is no Christ in Christmas. You may celebrate the birth of Christ, but why with all the tapestries of the world? What do they have to do with the birth of Christ?

You have it wrong. I won't decorate my house. I won't set up a tree. I will not adhere to any such custom. But I will talk about the birth of Christ to my children. Now, who is worshiping Christ during this season? I don't have the world in my house, and am not imitating it. As for me and my house we will follow the Lord.

 

==But Jeremiah 10:1-6 does? Come on. Romans 14:4-6 has a lot to do with this subject. Why? Because that section deals with the honoring of days and disagreement among Christians about those days. Jeremiah 10:1-6 has nothing to do with this subject. As I said in an earlier reply to you, which you have yet to reply to, you are comparing apples and oranges.

==Most Christians would agree with your concern over how Christmas has been commercialized. However that is not the issue on the table. The issue on the table is Christmas trees and your defense of the assertion that they are "pagan trees". Again, I pointed out your origins fallacy in an earlier reply to you. You can't condemn a modern practice simply because its roots may have been less than good.

==Not sure what that has to do with anything. Maybe those are issues you should be taking up with your family or the Catholic Church in general. I believe most folks on these boards are Baptist. Also, it would seem to me, the problem you describe above maybe one of a lack of regeneration and not the celebration of Christmas. Maybe you are transferring your disagreement with your families celebration of Christmas to the celebration of Christmas in general?

==Number 3 is irrelevant. Number 4 is a result of cultural/family tradition and has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Number 5 goes back to what I just stated above, and Number 6 is a result of the others. However none of that has anything to do with "pagan trees". So I am not sure why you keep running down these side roads. Is your problem really with trees or is it more about the way people abuse Christmas? Sounds like the latter.

==Putting up Christmas trees is no more being conformed to the world or learning the way of the heathen then going to CVS or Walmart.

==Again, that sounds like a personal situation that may very well be coloring how you view everything else. Does it surprise you that there are many Christian people and families that do not view Christmas as a time of partying? Maybe your personal experiences are causing you to paint with a very broad brush? Something to think about (at least).

==Those two things don't go together. Period. You are misapplying, wrongly dividing, Scripture. It seems to me that part of the issue is that you are assuming that everyone who decorates and puts up a tree is into partying and drunkeness.

==Again, you are comparing apples with oranges and trying to confuse the issue. Christmas, for Christians, is a day set aside to celebrate the grace of God in giving His Son to die for those who would believe (Jn 3:16?). Halloween is totally different. It is a celebration of death and evil. I don't celebrate Halloween, New Years, or Valentines Day. Why? Because I don't celebrate evil (thus no Halloween), I see no importance in changing numbers on a calender (thus no New Years), and I am single (thus no Valentines). However none of those days compares to Christmas. For Christians, Christmas is a day set aside to celebrate the gift of a Savior. We celebrate by going to church services, by reading the nativity from Matthew and Luke, by having family get togethers, by exchanging gifts with loved ones, by enjoying family. Yes, we set up a small Christmas tree. However that does not mean we are following the world or being pagan. A tree is a tree and it means nothing. Decorations are nothing but plastic and, on their own, mean nothing. It is how the tree is put up, the motives of the heart, that makes the tree good or bad. Maybe that is what you don't see. Maybe your personal experiences have been so bad that you have failed to see the other side? I don't know because I don't know you. But what I do know, from plenty of experience, is that legalism is usually driven by a person's own experiences. Romans 14:4-6 is very important in this discussion. I understand why you don't want it to be. After all, if this is an issue of conscience and liberty you have no case.

==You have just violated your own principle. I don't expect you to see the contradiction but I would point out that someone could turn your statement around on you very easily.

==Department stores do not define Christmas for me. I object strongly to the commercialism. For me, and for many Christians, Christmas is defined by our relationship with the Lord.

==But you do adhere to other "worldly" customs? Can't you see the problem? It sounds like you are picking and choosing based on your own personal experiences.

 

DHK,

Interesting point.

Let me ask you...

After someone leaves the door of their house, can anyone tell that they have a christmas tree? :tonofbricks:



:godisgood:

 

Today after school, my daughter put up our outside lights. According to her, our house "looked Jewish" without the lights. I guess things like this all depend on where you live.

She's also the one who decorated both our our trees (but I didn't see her bowing down to either one (whew!), so I guess we're ok).

 

You didn't read my full reply. Romans 14 doesn't apply because I am not adverse to celebrating the birth of Christ. More accurately I am against celebrating Christmas, per se, or those who say they are celebrating the birth of Christ with all the worldly attractions of the unsaved. You cannot serve two masters. Choose ye this day whom ye will serve. Whosoever shall be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. The Scripture is quite clear on this point. My argument is based on worldliness.

My basic assertion is that the so-called celebration of Christ is done by imitating "the way of the heathen". The way of the heathen (unsaved) has many shapes and forms: Christmas trees, commercialism, etc. I have mentioned many of them already.
Your "origins fallacy" is an origins fallacy in and of itself that works against you.
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. One cannot ignore history. And every time one points out the origin of any one thing, you don't have the right to call it a fallacy; only your opinion. The Christmas tree did have an origin. It wasn't Martin Luther. It was in paganism. You can call black, white, but it won't change the color any. Black will still remain black. You can cry origin fallacy all you want; but it won't change facts any.

I'll be careful not to use personal illustrations next time. I don't need a Freudian analysis. Sorry, I should have used much better illustrations from my missionary work in third world nations where evergreen trees don't grow. They think that Americans are very odd and eccentric to celebrate Easter with bunnies that lay eggs (fertility goddesses), and Christmas with decorated trees with gifts put underneath them--like the pagans who worship trees do. Trying to explain "heathen customs" of American Christians to new believers in other third world nations who have never heard of such things is not easy. It is actually a stumbling block.

All of it has to do with worldliness vs. holiness. Which lifestyle have you chosen. Do you imitate the way of the world or the way of Christ?

Hardly! You also need to study Scripture such as James 4:4; 1John 2:15,16; Romans 12:2. When you finish your study come back and tell me what these Scriptures mean. Paul, John and James were obviously not talking about Wal-Marts! :rolleyes:
42 times is the word grove/groves used in relation to Baal or idol worship.
Trees in the Bible are often connected to idolatrous worship.
The Israelites, even when they did not worship at them, were still commanded to cut them down. Why? They were heathen objects of worship. They were associated with paganism. They weren't commanded to do that with their tools, their donkeys, their beasts of burdens, their houses, etc.
Learn not the way of the heathen.

Yes, Mr. Freud. I have learned my lesson. I will avoid personal illustrations because you will not learn from them, just turn them around and use them to personally attack me. That is very kind of you, isn't it?

You still don't get it do you? How does the world celebrate "Christmas?" They eat, drink, and be merry. They party, and get drunk. They put up their trees and decorate their houses. They take their children to see Santa Claus, and all at the same time during this season they will act very pious and religious. That is Christmas. It is not the celebration of the birth of Christ, but it is Christmas. "Learn not the way of the heathen."
If you are going to celebrate the birth of Christ, then do so; but not the way the heathen do it (the unsaved).
Why must Christianity imitate the world, instead of simply worshiping the Lord of Glory without all the trappings of the world?

 

No it isn't. Christimas is a pagan holiday where people get drunk, party, have a good time, and sometimes act religious pretending they celebrate something about the birth of Christ (mostly by attending church or listening to some hymns). It is a pagan holiday.
But, if on that day, you want to celebrate the birth of Christ, then do so; but without the trappings and customs of the heathen.

Likewise, during Easter--we don't celebrate Easter, but we do celebrate Resurrection Sunday. There is a big difference.

There is a lot of evil in Christmas. There isn't evil in the celebration of the birth of Christ, but there is in Christmas--two different things. Study the issue out. Come out from among them and be ye separate. Be not conformed to this world.

And all of that is good. So leave it at that. Why mix in the heathen practices and do what Israel did, creating a syncrestic religion--the worship of the Lord, all the while mixing in heathen elements with it.

Where did the Christmas tree originate from: God or the devil?
If you can say God, then demonstrate it through Scripture. Otherwise you have your answer.

Alright Mr. Freud, enough of the psychoanalysis.
Listen Martin. Your profile says that your are 34 and that you teach history. I have been teaching in Bible College for as many years as you are old. "My plenty of experience" tells me that you have no idea what "legalism" is.

And because you don't have a Biblical definition of legalism is the reason why you do not understand that Romans 14:4-6 has no relevance in this discussion. The relevant verses I have given you and challenged you to study them; find out what they mean.

You fail to see any relevance to culture; culture that is not religious. Even the unsaved use a ring to show that they are married. They also sign a marriage document also. Do you consider that worldly? If by worldly you consider that, and mowing the grass, and vacuuming the house, then you have a lot to learn.

If your statement is true then it would not be necessary for you to set up a Christmas tree and decorate it, would it. That has nothing to do with the birth of Christ, only with heathen practices. So which is it: worldliness or Godliness?
Be not conformed to this world, or Be conformed to the image of Christ?

More Freudian insights?
No, I am not picking and choosing. I choose the Bible. The Bible says nothing about trees, decorations, and such. Read the history of Christmas. If you don't know it, do a search. Do away with all the gaudiness and trappings and commercialism of so-called Christmas and celebrate the birth of Christ, and His birth alone.
Are you able to detach your emotions and sentimentality from your need to have a tree in your house? Why or why not?

 

DHK,

Actually it does. There was the Tree of Life in the garden.

Christ referred to Himself as a "vine", and we are the "branches" that produce good fruit.

Psalm 1:3 speaks of Gods people being like a...

Jesus compared a good man as being one who is like a tree that bears good fruit.

Trees are mentioned postively in the scriptures. God made all the trees. He called all the trees of the earth "good", along with everything else, immediately after creation.



:godisgood:

 

Your history may be correct but your Christology - and theirs - is not. The Nestorians believe that Christ has two Personalities; the Copts are Monophysites and believe that He has only one Nature. Both are therefore heretical on the Christological front. But if, despite that, you think that either is the One True Church, why don't you join them; why are you a Baptist?

 

He couldn't do that Matt. The Assyrian Church reconcilled with Rome. They no longer hold Nestorius views on the nature of Christ thought they still use the term Christokos in their services.

 

Yes, I'd forgotten that. And also he'd be in full communion with Tariq Aziz, Saddam's former foreign minister (or is the latter a Chaldean Christian - I always get them confused!)

 

I celebrate the Birth of my Savior.....God became man, the Great "I Am" - and the tree is just part of the joy of being able to celebrate one of two holidays that we Christians can proclaim the Gospel is connected to.

I know, I know, you will rake Easter over the coals too. I don't care. I will still celebrate the Risen Lord.

It's when you take Christ OUT of these events that you get crossways with me. Period.

 

Precisely!

 

DHK, I'm not taking you to task specifically but your reasoning reflects that of many that oppose trees, commercialism, etc associated with our cultural celebration of Christmas. You said, "My argument is based on worldliness." I find a bit of irony- not in what you said - but the medium in which you said it. Many of us spend considerable time on the World Wide Web. There are many, many Christian web sites- Baptist Board included. The web itself is anything but a Christian environment. As much as 12% of web content is pornographic (http://internet-filter-review.toptenreviews.com/internet-pornography-statistics.html#anchor4 ) with 420 million pages and growing each day. What about other content that is in direct opposition to the Christian faith? I was going to list a few but I discovered the list would be rather lengthy. Yet, in the midst of this cesspool, we insist that we can have Christian fellowship and interaction just like everybody else that accesses the web. There are millions and millions of pages that are contrary to our values and world view, yet we attempt to redeem a few pages for the Kingdom by "imitating 'the way of the heathen'."

Why do Christians have a web presence? Is it because the world does? Why do we have Christian forums? Is it because the world has them for every other topic known to man? I find it ironic that we wade waist-deep in this putrid www.swamp but do not find it as worldly as putting up a Christmas tree.

The way of the heathen certainly takes on many forms not limited to Christmas. The so-called celebration of Christ - apart from Christmas - is done by imitating the way of the heathen. The www has its roots in the military and academia but it is far from that now. It exists primarily to propagate a secular world view. We know that yet we still participate in it daily and help the growth of those with whom we are at odds.

Help me wrap my mind around this. If I have a Christmas tree I am dabbling or fully participating in pagan practices but if I am on the web -one click away from any number of sites in direct opposition to the Christian faith - I am okay? Kissing madre under the mistletoe is akin to dancing in the oak groves with my Druid ancestors but I can skip merrily through the fetid web as long as my online filter is in place?

Where do we draw the line? Is that an Asheroth in my living room or a simple decoration? I don't have any inclination to bow before it and worship the angel on top. I have yet to have a visitor to my home exclaim, "Oh, you have a Christmas tree. For a minute there I thought you might be one of those born again Christians." Where do we stop? I am surrounded by worldly things that do not diminish my passion for Jesus Christ. I have a car (actually two of them), a television that gets over 200 channels (the web isn't the only fetid place), I wear relatively fashionable clothing (and do not wear a tie on Sunday mornings), I use copious amounts of electricity...., oh my!