Actually, I've been joking around in latin. However, this is my view which doesn't really seem to fit here but I'll give it a shot.
Salvation first I view as everything including heaven not just the point in time we're justified. So where does Salvation lie? In the hands of the Almighty.
I look at it this way Salvation begins with God. With out God's intervention we wouldn't even consider salvation. So, for me it follows this path.
Salvation begins with the Grace of God. God has elected me to be saved whether Universally or specifically or both I'm not sure. However, ultimately, it is god's salvation. Then he softens my heart or prepares me for it. Then he offers it to me. The only appropiate responce is to accept the free gift with faith already given me. But then I must follow Jesus and live rightly with all the benefits and struggles that accompany it by the faith he has given me. At some point when I shed this mortal coil the Lord will raise me from the dead and a judgement of my actions and works will ensue under the Grace and provision and judgement of God. Then I will enter the wedding feast of the Lamb eternally with him.
All of these aspects are salvation.
Ordo Salutis
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ReformedBaptist, Sep 9, 2008.
Page 8 of 10
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Thinkingstuff Active Member
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What? That man cannot be saved without the aid of the Holy Spirit? You don't believe that? No wonder you are confused.
You're pathetic.
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The word elect only refers to those that are saved; not to the unsaved. God does not give spiritual gifts to the unsaved--never has. He does not give faith to pagans. Until that pagan becomes saved he remains outside of the elect of God. Until Rahab the harlot believed in Jehovah she remained outside of the nation of Israel. Likewise, for Ruth. Israel was God's elect. Naomi and Ruth became part of that elect by believing (by their own choice) the God of the elect. The "elect" only applies to those that believe, not to those that do not believe.
People do not become elect.People become saved.If you are saved you were elect before the foundation of the world.
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I speak forth the Word of God; not a man's system of theology which men get trapped in. If you are trapped in a man's system of theology and can't get out of it, I feel sorry for you.
I am not trapped in a man's system of theology.But your boots are being sucked off as we speak.
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The Bible is not a myth. You need to learn that.
You're back to being pathetic again.I had said that you perpetuate myths.You deliberately cast Calvinists in false and demeaning ways.You're shameful.
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God is neither cruel nor vindictive.
Of course He isn't.Why you bring up silly things is mind-numbing.
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The Muslim holds a sword to the neck of an "infidel" and tells him to believe (Allah) or die. The victim "believes," out of fear of his life. It is a forced conversion. Allah is cruel and vindictive.
God does not use the Holy Spirit to force people into robotic conversions with men having no free will. They have a choice to receive or reject. God is neither cruel or vindictive. He is a God of love and mercy. He did not create robots. He created man in His owm image, with a mind to choose between good and evil; to choose Christ or to deny him.
God is not cruel and vindictive.God is a God of love and mercy.God doesn't force people into robotic conversions.
Allah is cruel and vindictive.
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I believe what the Bible teaches; not what a man has developed in a his own box of theology.
I think you need to return to your box of theology.Came out when you want to be honest with any objections you have about real Calvinism -- not the warped variety of your mind.Click to expand...Click to expand...Click to expand...Click to expand...Click to expand...Click to expand...Click to expand... -
rip,
I hope this will clear your thinking on the Holy Spirit and His proper roll in salvation.
What amount of the Spirit does one need? "filling?" "indwelling?" How about just the "wisdom" of the Spirit -- as in Prov 8? The whole passage speaks of the Holy Spirit as God's wisdom and the last 2 verses sound like a call to salvation:
"For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death."
IOW, all we need to do is "find" the "wisdom" and we will find "life." We don't need to be "indwelt"/"regenerated by the Spirit first. We don't really need to be "filled" according to this passage. And notice it also says that we are capable of "finding" Wisdom, too! Notice in 8:1 how Wisdom cries out to be heard even of 'ye simple' and of 'fools!'
I would we had never had the 'wisdom' of Augustine and Calvin to convince us otherwise! Perhaps now you will see that theirs is a competing wisdom with the with God's wisdom, the Holy Spirit.
What amount of the Spirit does one need? Knowledge and understanding of the Wisdom of God in salvation is all. If you've found that, that is the amount of the Spirit you need and you can be saved if you will be saved.
skypair -
Pathetic? Believing that the holy Spirit is the agent of salvation and not fallen man pulling himself by his bootstraps is NOT pathetic. It is bible.
Pathetic? Let's try not to use such perjorative language. -
Dr. Bob said:Pathetic? Believing that the holy Spirit is the agent of salvation and not fallen man pulling himself by his bootstraps is NOT pathetic. It is bible.
Pathetic? Let's try not to use such perjorative language.Click to expand...
I repudiate that.But,more importantly the Bible rejects it.Fallen man is in bondage to sin.Unless and until God the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces a person of sin and causes that one to believe and repent -- he is in a hopeless plight.
So when DHK says that "I agreed that the Holy Spirit was involved." he is on the same old tired track of diminishing the foundational role of God being the Author and Finisher of our faith.
But DHK comes along and says :"What? That man cannot be saved without the aid of the Holy Spirit?You don't believe that?No wonder you are confused." That kind of "dialog" is his stock-in-trade.He delights in twisting things around.He charges me with things that he very well knows are completely false --- over and over again. -
Rippon said:But DHK comes along and says :"What? That man cannot be saved without the aid of the Holy Spirit?You don't believe that?No wonder you are confused." That kind of "dialog" is his stock-in-trade.He delights in twisting things around.He charges me with things that he very well knows are completely false --- over and over again.Click to expand...
I agreed that the Holy Spirit was involved.Click to expand...
"DHK minimizes the Holy Spirit's role in regeneration."
Something wrong here don't you think. I would call it a false accusation.
Because I don't believe your theology (and swallow it) hook, line and sinker, gives you no right to say that I minimize the the Holy Spirit's role in regeneration. That is false and you know it. -
Dr. Bob said:Pathetic? Believing that the holy Spirit is the agent of salvation and not fallen man pulling himself by his bootstraps is NOT pathetic. It is bible.
Pathetic? Let's try not to use such perjorative language.Click to expand...
...the discussion would have been over that the ban already in place! :type:
skypair -
Rippon said:Unregenerate, depraved man can make his own decision without God entering the picture. Sure, the Holy Spirit is involved in the process somehow, but man is the decisive player.Click to expand...
So when DHK says that "I agreed that the Holy Spirit was involved." he is on the same old tired track of diminishing the foundational role of God being the Author and Finisher of our faith.Click to expand...
skypair -
DHK said:Now comes the false accusation. You are responding to a statement originally made by me:
And then you turn around and say:
"DHK minimizes the Holy Spirit's role in regeneration."
Something wrong here don't you think. I would call it a false accusation.
Because I don't believe your theology (and swallow it) hook, line and sinker, gives you no right to say that I minimize the the Holy Spirit's role in regeneration. That is false and you know it.Click to expand...
Past statements and sentiments from you.More samples of your theology can be provided.
He [God] may be involved in our salvation.
God doesn't give faith to believe.
He [God] knew about it [our salvation] of course.
Whatever the will of God decrees,it will come to pass -- sounds like Islam to me.
Someone can come to Christ through a combination of superior wisdom and keen perception.
Granted to believe means privileged to believe.
Man chooses to be saved.
He [man] has the ability to make the decision all on his own.So even though the Holy Spirit was involved... -
Rippon said:You are the one who falsely accuses on a regular basis.
Past statements and sentiments from you.More samples of your theology can be provided.Click to expand...
He [God] may be involved in our salvation.Click to expand...
God doesn't give faith to believe.Click to expand...
I have yet to hear your answer on that.
My pet dog trusts me; has faith in me. Did God give him that faith?
He [God] knew about it [our salvation] of course.Click to expand...
Whatever the will of God decrees,it will come to pass -- sounds like Islam to me.Click to expand...
Someone can come to Christ through a combination of superior wisdom and keen perception.Click to expand...
Granted to believe means privileged to believe.Click to expand...
Man chooses to be saved.Click to expand...
He [man] has the ability to make the decision all on his own.So even though the Holy Spirit was involved...Click to expand...
So you post these truths of mine, and then call them false accusations.
Odd. -
DHK said:Are you suggesting that God may not be involved in man's salvation??
Stop your nonsense.The Lord is not merely involved -- He is responsible for one's salvation.
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Why would God give a spiritual gift to an unsaved person?
I have yet to hear your answer on that.
My pet dog trusts me; has faith in me. Did God give him that faith?
Your analogies are too extreme and silly.
God gives His saved children gifts.(See 1 Cor.12:1-11).What I am talking about is an unregenerate elect person --the Lord gives such a person faith to believe.Such an individual will not believe on their own.
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Are you suggesting that God is not knowledgeable; does not know about our salvation? What kind of God do you serve?
My God is the One of the Bible in counter-distinction to those who think they are large-and-in-charge with respect to how their salvation took place.God is not on the sidelines observing regeneration.He determines the who,when,where and how pertaining to it.
I have had enough of your infantile "What kind of God do you serve talk?"Just knock it off.And you dare to charge me with ungodly speech?!You have a lot of temerity.
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"Whatever the will of God decrees..." The statement is a definition of fatalism; one of the beliefs of Islam. Is it one of yours as well?
There you go again Jimmy Carter.Can you please deal in truth?Christianity is not Islam.You do not believe in the biblical fact that God decrees.He ordains things to occur.He doesn't just know -- He determines things.That rankles you.Acts 13:48 is your great nemesis.
If you think Calvinism is teaching untruths similiar to that of Islam -- than you believe that Calvinists are unsaved.Don't just keep throwing dirt on us without taking the consequences of your actions.
You need to stop your unbridled characterizations of us.You are dead wrong in your assertions.You know you are sinning in doing it -- but you have continued.You're shameful.
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No doubt this statement was made in the light of Phil.1:29. Have you bothered to study it yet?
Yes,I probably knew more about that passage before you ever became a believer.Are you still of the opinion that it just means that God granting faith is a privilege and not a bestowal?Or have you come around to more solid biblical footing?Hopefully you have come to see that faith and repentance are given (granted) by God to those in time who were selected for eternal life before the world began.
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You don't like the truth do you.
I value it above a number of people here who specialize in misrepresentation.
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So you post these truths of mine, and then call them false accusations.
Odd.
Truths of yours.That's a strange way of putting things. It sounds so post-modern of you.
You have made so many false accusations of me and other Calvinists that it is hard to catalog.
You have repeatedly said that I serve another God.
You have said that I am worshipping the wrong God.
You have asserted that my religion is not much different than Islam.And further,that you were not ashamed to say so.
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The former were charges that you have made against me personally.
But you have also said false things about Calvinists in general.
You say we believe that God forces salvation on people.You say that we think people are robots -- machines.Do you realize that the more you say something doesn't necessarily make it true?Gather up your robot toys,along with your Calvinism =Islam junk and trash them.
You have said that Calvinists think that the reprobate are pre-programmed to serve the Devil.
You have said that we believe the reprobate are 'elected' to go to Hell.Click to expand...Click to expand...Click to expand...Click to expand...Click to expand...Click to expand...Click to expand...Click to expand... -
skypair said:If this had been skypair...
...the discussion would have been over that the ban already in place! :type:
skypairClick to expand...
I guess birds of a feather flock together :rolleyes: -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
A forum to discuss idea's and points of views should not be taken personaly nor should name calling commence. We all hold strong views and will defend them but this is a forum. We disagree about some of these theological questions. However, charity is a fruit of the spirit. Just a reminder.
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Rippon said:DHK said:"Are you suggesting that God may not be involved in man's salvation??"
Stop your nonsense.The Lord is not merely involved -- He is responsible for one's salvation.Click to expand...
"Why would God give a spiritual gift to an unsaved person?
I have yet to hear your answer on that.
My pet dog trusts me; has faith in me. Did God give him that faith?"
Your analogies are too extreme and silly.
God gives His saved children gifts.(See 1 Cor.12:1-11).What I am talking about is an unregenerate elect person --the Lord gives such a person faith to believe.Such an individual will not believe on their own.Click to expand...
When Nicodemus came to Jesus, Jesus did not tell him you must be one of the elect.
When the Philippian jailor came to Paul, Paul did not tell him: You must be one of the elect.
When Philip spoke to the Ethiopian eunuch, he did not tell him: you must be one of the elect.
What Paul did say: "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
That does not say: "Whosoever God forces His faith to call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Whoever calls. The calling is the persons own choice. He is not forced by God. He is unregenerate, and the faith must come from within himself. He cannot be forced by God to make a decision. God is not going to give an individual faith to believe.
Paul said: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
He did not say: Believe with the faith God has given you.
Nowhere in the Bible is such an concept taught.
"Are you suggesting that God is not knowledgeable; does not know about our salvation? What kind of God do you serve?"
My God is the One of the Bible in counter-distinction to those who think they are large-and-in-charge with respect to how their salvation took place.God is not on the sidelines observing regeneration.He determines the who,when,where and how pertaining to it.Click to expand...
You write in your profile: "I was a Christian for 43 years; then a Calvinist."
Are you inferring that you lost your salvation when you became a follower of Calvin? Or that Calvinists are not Christians? I am not questioning your salvation, just the wording of your statement of salvation in your profile. You might want to clarify it.
"Whatever the will of God decrees..." The statement is a definition of fatalism; one of the beliefs of Islam. Is it one of yours as well?*
There you go again Jimmy Carter.Can you please deal in truth?Christianity is not Islam.Click to expand...
What I have told you is truth. You have described to a Tee, the "fatalistic" doctrine of Islam. The God of Christianity is not like that. You are right in that Christianity is not Islam. That is why I would never believe such an Islamic doctrine. God is not fatalistic.
Here it is: "Whatever the will of God decrees it will be so." (your statement)
"Whatever Allah decrees it will be so." (Islam)
Not much difference is there? You have set God aloof from His people just as Islam has. But the truth is that God is intricately involved in the affairs of His people. "He so loved the world..." "He is the propitiation...for the sins of the whole world."
I believe in a God of love and mercy; as well as holiness and justice. I believe in all of his attributes. But when you set God off as being fatalistic, as you have done, you automatically take away from God many of his positive attributes.
You do not believe in the biblical fact that God decrees.He ordains things to occur.He doesn't just know -- He determines things.That rankles you.Acts 13:48 is your great nemesis.Click to expand...
--And why should this be my nemesis?
God knew before hand who would be saved. That is all that this verse is teaching. It seems that you want to claim this foreknowledge for yourself. Is that true?
If you think Calvinism is teaching untruths similiar to that of Islam -- than you believe that Calvinists are unsaved.Don't just keep throwing dirt on us without taking the consequences of your actions.Click to expand...
I already said that I am not questioning your salvation. I made that abundantly clear. To state what I explained above: What you (not Calvin) set forth, is a doctrine similar to Islam's doctrine of fatalism. That is something that you have to deal with--not Calvin. There is no "us" here. I am speaking to you.
You need to stop your unbridled characterizations of us.You are dead wrong in your assertions.You know you are sinning in doing it -- but you have continued.You're shameful.Click to expand...
I answer your posts, and I don't find that shameful. What is shameful is your inability to respond to them in an intelligent manner.
"No doubt this statement was made in the light of Phil.1:29. Have you bothered to study it yet?"
Yes,I probably knew more about that passage before you ever became a believer.Click to expand...
Are you still of the opinion that it just means that God granting faith is a privilege and not a bestowal?Or have you come around to more solid biblical footing?Hopefully you have come to see that faith and repentance are given (granted) by God to those in time who were selected for eternal life before the world began.Click to expand...
There is no example of it in Scripture. There is no teaching of it in Scripture.
It is a man-made doctrine.
"Believe" and you shall be saved. The "belief" or "faith" must come from the individual. Otherwise he cannot be saved. The Great Commission is given to every believer to: Go and preach the gospel to every creature. To that message there must be a response. The response is either to believe it or reject it. That choice is up to man himself. If you say it is up to God, then man is a pre-programmed robot with no choice, but only those that God has elected must of a necessity choose for God has forced his faith upon them so that they have no choice but to believe. That is not Christianity. That is akin to a Muslim holding a sword to one's throat and saying: Believe or die.
God is not cruel and vindictive; He is a God of love. He does not coerce people into salvation, though he is not willing that any should perish.Click to expand... -
rip,
I think you need to come up with a more credible scenario of salvation. The main, critical component of salvation for Calvies is that the unbeliever is "indwelt"/regenerate before they believe or even know of Christ. This just harkens back to infant baptism/regeneration. You've absolutely got to be kidding! Yet Calvinism depends on it but Baptists and the Bible say that is not so. Who do you believe?
skypair -
DHK said:I never said that God wasn't responsible for salvation. This is your false accusation, one might say. What it really amounts to, is you putting words into my mouth, things that I never said.Click to expand...
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He cannot be forced by God to make a decision.
[/quote]
Agreed.
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God is not going to give an individual faith to believe.
[/quote]
Biblically untrue.
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Your testimony is interesting to say the least.
You write in your profile: "I was a Christian for 43 years; then a Calvinist."
[/quote]
You don't read too well. I became a Christian more than 40 years ago. Over 20 years ago "I came to Calvinistic convictions."
In your case you remained an Arminian.In my case the Lord led me to Calvinistic convictions.
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Are you inferring that you lost your salvation when you became a follower of Calvin?
[/quote]
See, these kind of inane comments do not serve you well.I guarantee you can predict my respons:.I do not follow the man John Calvin.Prove that you are more mature than to type that drivel.
I did not lose my salvation when I came to a Calvinistic understanding of the Word of God.In fact my faith was strengthened.
Your remarks about losing salvation is shameful.But you say these kinds of things often.
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Or that Calvinists are not Christians? I am not questioning your salvation, just the wording of your statement of salvation in your profile. You might want to clarify it.
[/quote]
You might want to step back and evaluate your walk before the Lord with these kinds of remarks of yours.
You might want clarification -- but I rather think you want to be extra-contentious.
You are not questioning my savation?! Why then do you repeatedly say things like I serve and worship a different God?You're rather transparent here.
___________________________________________________________
You have described to a Tee, the "fatalistic" doctrine of Islam. The God of Christianity is not like that. You are right in that Christianity is not Islam. That is why I would never believe such an Islamic doctrine. God is not fatalistic.
Here it is: "Whatever the will of God decrees it will be so." (your statement)
"Whatever Allah decrees it will be so." (Islam)
Not much difference is there? You have set God aloof from His people just as Islam has.
[/quote]
Pure malarkey on your part.
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... you automatically take away from God many of his positive attributes.
[/quote]
Does the Lord have any negative attributes?! They are all positive as far as I am concerned -- and I concern myself with Scripture.
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Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
--And why should this be my nemesis?
God knew before hand who would be saved. That is all that this verse is teaching.
[/quote]
Well you need to study it a lot more.It does not teach that God merely knows beforehand -- He ordains,appoints,establishes,determines.His decree is realized in time -- then the ones who are His elect are given belief,and hence eternal life.
That passage still opposes your notions.
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I don't know about Calvinism in general. I didn't know that you were his official representative. Did he appoint you when he left you his will? I am not responding to Calvin. I am responding to you. So let's make that one point clear.
[/quote]
Clarity is your forte?!
Yes,you are right.Calvinism is something you are not familiar with.
John Calvin does not = Calvinism. You specialize in untruths.
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I already said that I am not questioning your salvation. I made that abundantly clear.
[/quote]
But the reality is that you often post such things as I related above.So your "abundantly clear" plea is not penetrating.
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To state what I explained above: What you (not Calvin) set forth, is a doctrine similar to Islam's doctrine of fatalism.
[/quote]
Your bunkum again.
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Is Rippon more than one person. Why do you refer to "Rippon" as "us"?
[/quote]
I distinguished in my last post things in which you have slandered me personally.I then related how you regularly malign Calvinists in general.But again,you have trouble reading.
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God does not give faith to the unsaved. How far off the map can that be?
There is no example of it in Scripture. There is no teaching of it in Scripture.
It is a man-made doctrine.
[/quote]
I furnished several passages of Scripture which teach that God indeed gives faith to His own.You don't appreciate the force of those verses and yet you have the gall to say they are "man-made doctrines".Your doctrine of salvation is pretty man-centered -- not God-centered.
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If you say it is up to God, then man is a pre-programmed robot with no choice, but only those that God has elected must of a necessity choose for God has forced his faith upon them so that they have no choice but to believe. That is not Christianity. That is akin to a Muslim holding a sword to one's throat and saying: Believe or die.
God is not cruel and vindictive; He is a God of love. He does not coerce people into salvation, though he is not willing that any should perish.[/quote]
I told you in my prior post to gather up those toy robots of yours.Are they still in your sandbox?
Christianity is not Islam. God is not cruel;although vengence is indeed His.
God is love.But He is not only love.
He doesn't force people into salvation.
He is not willing that any of His own perish.You need to contextualize 2 Peter 3:9.Read,study and meditate on the whole Epistle.Then get back to me. -
Rippon said:"God is not going to give an individual faith to believe."
Biblically untrue.Click to expand...
"Your testimony is interesting to say the least.
You write in your profile: "I was a Christian for 43 years; then a Calvinist."
You don't read too well. I became a Christian more than 40 years ago. Over 20 years ago "I came to Calvinistic convictions."Click to expand...
Even so, a former Catholic could write: I became a Christian 20 years ago; then a Baptist.
Catholics consider themselves Christians. A new Christian may believe that becoming a Baptist was the point of his salvation. Thus I simply asked for clarification on what you had written.
In your case you remained an Arminian.In my case the Lord led me to Calvinistic convictions.Click to expand...
"Are you inferring that you lost your salvation when you became a follower of Calvin?"
See, these kind of inane comments do not serve you well.I guarantee you can predict my respons:.I do not follow the man John Calvin.Prove that you are more mature than to type that drivel.Click to expand...
I did not lose my salvation when I came to a Calvinistic understanding of the Word of God.In fact my faith was strengthened.
Your remarks about losing salvation is shameful.But you say these kinds of things often.Click to expand...
Or that Calvinists are not Christians? I am not questioning your salvation, just the wording of your statement of salvation in your profile. You might want to clarify it.
You might want to step back and evaluate your walk before the Lord with these kinds of remarks of yours.
You might want clarification -- but I rather think you want to be extra-contentious.
You are not questioning my savation?! Why then do you repeatedly say things like I serve and worship a different God?You're rather transparent here.Click to expand...
Where have I said that you serve a different God?
"You have described to a Tee, the "fatalistic" doctrine of Islam. The God of Christianity is not like that. You are right in that Christianity is not Islam. That is why I would never believe such an Islamic doctrine. God is not fatalistic.
Here it is: "Whatever the will of God decrees it will be so." (your statement)
"Whatever Allah decrees it will be so." (Islam)
Not much difference is there? You have set God aloof from His people just as Islam has. "
Pure malarkey on your part.Click to expand...
"... you automatically take away from God many of his positive attributes."
Does the Lord have any negative attributes?! They are all positive as far as I am concerned -- and I concern myself with Scripture.Click to expand...
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
--And why should this be my nemesis?
God knew before hand who would be saved. That is all that this verse is teaching.
Well you need to study it a lot more.It does not teach that God merely knows beforehand -- He ordains,appoints,establishes,determines.His decree is realized in time -- then the ones who are His elect are given belief,and hence eternal life.Click to expand...
1. It is by fate, and God knows about it.
2. It is pre-programmed by God, and man has no choice about it. He is simply a robot in God's hand.
What are you saying. Which one do you choose to say that man is.
That passage still opposes your notions.Click to expand...
"I don't know about Calvinism in general. I didn't know that you were his official representative. Did he appoint you when he left you his will? I am not responding to Calvin. I am responding to you. So let's make that one point clear."
Clarity is your forte?!
Yes,you are right.Calvinism is something you are not familiar with.
John Calvin does not = Calvinism. You specialize in untruths.Click to expand...
"I already said that I am not questioning your salvation. I made that abundantly clear."
But the reality is that you often post such things as I related above.So your "abundantly clear" plea is not penetrating.Click to expand...
"To state what I explained above: What you (not Calvin) set forth, is a doctrine similar to Islam's doctrine of fatalism."
Your bunkum again.
It is sad that you can't refute what I say; only be sarcastic.
"Is Rippon more than one person. Why do you refer to "Rippon" as "us"?"
I distinguished in my last post things in which you have slandered me personally.I then related how you regularly malign Calvinists in general.But again,you have trouble reading.Click to expand...
"God does not give faith to the unsaved. How far off the map can that be?
There is no example of it in Scripture. There is no teaching of it in Scripture.
It is a man-made doctrine."
I furnished several passages of Scripture which teach that God indeed gives faith to His own.You don't appreciate the force of those verses and yet you have the gall to say they are "man-made doctrines".Your doctrine of salvation is pretty man-centered -- not God-centered.Click to expand...
The Bible still says "Believe on the Lord Jesus..."
It does not say: "Believe with God's faith on the Lord Jesus."
Your position holds no water.
"If you say it is up to God, then man is a pre-programmed robot with no choice, but only those that God has elected must of a necessity choose for God has forced his faith upon them so that they have no choice but to believe. That is not Christianity. That is akin to a Muslim holding a sword to one's throat and saying: Believe or die.
God is not cruel and vindictive; He is a God of love. He does not coerce people into salvation, though he is not willing that any should perish."
I told you in my prior post to gather up those toy robots of yours.Are they still in your sandbox?
Christianity is not Islam. God is not cruel;although vengence is indeed His.
God is love.But He is not only love.Click to expand...
It is true that God is love. You need to show that more in your posts, especially in the doctrine of soteriology.
He doesn't force people into salvation.
He is not willing that any of His own perish.You need to contextualize 2 Peter 3:9.Read,study and meditate on the whole Epistle.Then get back to me.Click to expand... -
DHK said:This is simply an assertion of yours. If it were true you would be able to back it up with irrefutable evidence or Scripture, but you can't.Click to expand...
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This is not true. I am neither an Arminian nor a Calvinist, and never have been. One does not have to be one or the other, contrary to your thinking.
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Real Christians fall into the Calvinist and Arminian camps.Some professing Christians Christians are semi-Pelagian.Your beliefs square-up with Arminianism.
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Where have I said that you serve a different God?
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Well,one such time (of the several) was post #82 of yours on the thread "God Got The Memo" wherein you said that I am "worshipping the wrong God."
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Then prove the analogy wrong.
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Your analogies are worthless.When you start saying stupid things like God must give faith to dogs so they'll obey their masters -- in order to dismiss the biblical doctrine of God giving faith to His people -- you have stepped into nonsense.It seems Sp has become your mentor in the faith.
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What man classifies as negative attributes? Yes. Justice, Judgment, etc. Those that are offsetting to love, mercy and kindness.
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None of God's attributes are negative.How then would you classify His Holiness?
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Please don't give me that Islamic drivel again.
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Are you having an identity crisis?I am the one telling you not to dredge up your Islamic drivel again.I'll be real happy for you never to mention it again.It's sinful on your part.[/quote] -
I don't know how DHK can have a conversatin with Rippon's butchering of the quote feature. It's amazing something so simple can be so hard to use :confused:
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