Prevenient Grace

:confused: Well, this is a new one to me. Care to support these two assertions you made with Scripture?

1) Mere "belief in God" saves those who do not hear the Gospel.
2) And that they will hear the Gospel in the MK.

 

Yes, but we do disagree on the nature of grace - prevenient vs. effectual, which was the original topic of this thread.

 

I hesitantly say that AT is right on this score. Nowhere does scripture say that those who do not here the Gospel in an explicit sense are "saved" based on the light they DO receive. Romans 1& 2 make clear that ALL are depraved, and apart from Jesus are LOST. Those who receive some light (via conscience, common grace or natural revelation) are judged according to what light they receive -- but NOONE is saved APART from that LIGHT which is CHRIST JESUS (John 14:6; Acts 4:12).

JDale

 

D. James Kennedy has preached this "gospel in the stars." What was Nimrod trying to build his tower for? How did they know that God was in heaven? Why does God ask Job about those signs in the stars? In fact, he dares to say that the future is written in the constellations for all generations to see. The Egyptians saw it a built the Sphinx denoting the beginning and end of time.

You are right here. The angels do not have control of the skies to even appear there with their "gospel." But when all are cast out of heaven with Satan, Rev 12, that is when God's angels will "preach the gospel" to all mankind.

skypair

 

Agreed...Er, we do disagree re: prevenient vs. effectual grace.

JDale

 

Well, that is a "bone of contention" on another thread. You see, justification comes by faith IF faith = belief. Justification comes WITH faith if in your paradigm belief precedes faith.

Look at it this way: What is required of man? Belief, right? Belief that is actionable and acted upon (else it is "in vain") which action is repentance and trusting in God.

Now all throughout scripture, if a man believed, God gave back evidence/faith (Heb 11:1) "Faith is the evidence of things hoped for [believed], the substance of things not seen [spiritual]." And God gave justification unto eternal life which they called "the righteousness of God."

However, in the NT, God also gives sanctification by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Would you agree? And we receive the gifts of the Spirit, one of which is faith (1Cor 12:7-11).

Now the obvious issue left is when are the OT saints sanctified? They are resurrected into the MK of Christ and indwelt as we are today. Do you see that?

All by which I attempt to bring Calvinists over to this idea that there really IS a "condition" to election -- belief. It is NOT a work -- Rom 4:5 proves that. But it does precede faith and the "gifts" of the Spirit -- it has to if faith is one of them! Regeneration AFTER belief and SIMULTANEOUS with faith!

skypair

 

Ezekiel 16
God's Grace to Unfaithful Jerusalem
1. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
2. "Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations
3. and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD to Jerusalem, "Your origin and your birth are from the land of the Canaanite, your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite.
4. "As for your birth, on the day you were born your navel cord was not cut, nor were you washed with water for cleansing; you were not rubbed with salt or even wrapped in cloths.
5. "No eye looked with pity on you to do any of these things for you, to have compassion on you. Rather you were thrown out into the open field, for you were abhorred on the day you were born.
6. "When I passed by you and saw you squirming in your blood, I said to you {while you were} in your blood, 'Live!' Yes, I said to you {while you were} in your blood, 'Live!'
7. "I made you numerous like plants of the field. Then you grew up, became tall and reached the age for fine ornaments; {your} breasts were formed and your hair had grown. Yet you were naked and bare.
8. "Then I passed by you and saw you, and behold, you were at the time for love; so I spread My skirt over you and covered your nakedness. I also swore to you and entered into a covenant with you so that you became Mine," declares the Lord GOD.
9. "Then I bathed you with water, washed off your blood from you and anointed you with oil.
10. "I also clothed you with embroidered cloth and put sandals of porpoise skin on your feet; and I wrapped you with fine linen and covered you with silk.
11. "I adorned you with ornaments, put bracelets on your hands and a necklace around your neck.
12. "I also put a ring in your nostril, earrings in your ears and a beautiful crown on your head.
13. "Thus you were adorned with gold and silver, and your dress was of fine linen, silk and embroidered cloth. You ate fine flour, honey and oil; so you were exceedingly beautiful and advanced to royalty.
14. "Then your fame went forth among the nations on account of your beauty, for it was perfect because of My splendor which I bestowed on you," declares the Lord GOD.
15. "But you trusted in your beauty and played the harlot because of your fame, and you poured out your harlotries on every passer-by who might be {willing.}
16. "You took some of your clothes, made for yourself high places of various colors and played the harlot on them, which should never come about nor happen.
17. "You also took your beautiful jewels {made} of My gold and of My silver, which I had given you, and made for yourself male images that you might play the harlot with them.
18. "Then you took your embroidered cloth and covered them, and offered My oil and My incense before them.
19. "Also My bread which I gave you, fine flour, oil and honey with which I fed you, you would offer before them for a soothing aroma; so it happened," declares the Lord GOD.
20. "Moreover, you took your sons and daughters whom you had borne to Me and sacrificed them to idols to be devoured. Were your harlotries so small a matter?
21. "You slaughtered My children and offered them up to idols by causing them to pass through {the fire.}
22. "Besides all your abominations and harlotries you did not remember the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare and squirming in your blood.
23. "Then it came about after all your wickedness ('Woe, woe to you!' declares the Lord GOD),
24. that you built yourself a shrine and made yourself a high place in every square.
25. "You built yourself a high place at the top of every street and made your beauty abominable, and you spread your legs to every passer-by to multiply your harlotry.
26. "You also played the harlot with the Egyptians, your lustful neighbors, and multiplied your harlotry to make Me angry.
27. "Behold now, I have stretched out My hand against you and diminished your rations. And I delivered you up to the desire of those who hate you, the daughters of the Philistines, who are ashamed of your lewd conduct.
28. "Moreover, you played the harlot with the Assyrians because you were not satisfied; you played the harlot with them and still were not satisfied.
29. "You also multiplied your harlotry with the land of merchants, Chaldea, yet even with this you were not satisfied.""'
30. "How languishing is your heart," declares the Lord GOD, "while you do all these things, the actions of a bold-faced harlot.
31. "When you built your shrine at the beginning of every street and made your high place in every square, in disdaining money, you were not like a harlot.
32. "You adulteress wife, who takes strangers instead of her husband!
33. "Men give gifts to all harlots, but you give your gifts to all your lovers to bribe them to come to you from every direction for your harlotries.
34. "Thus you are different from those women in your harlotries, in that no one plays the harlot as you do, because you give money and no money is given you; thus you are different."
35. Therefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD.
36. Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because your lewdness was poured out and your nakedness uncovered through your harlotries with your lovers and with all your detestable idols, and because of the blood of your sons which you gave to idols,
37. therefore, behold, I will gather all your lovers with whom you took pleasure, even all those whom you loved {and} all those whom you hated. So I will gather them against you from every direction and expose your nakedness to them that they may see all your nakedness.
38. "Thus I will judge you like women who commit adultery or shed blood are judged; and I will bring on you the blood of wrath and jealousy.
39. "I will also give you into the hands of your lovers, and they will tear down your shrines, demolish your high places, strip you of your clothing, take away your jewels, and will leave you naked and bare.
40. "They will incite a crowd against you and they will stone you and cut you to pieces with their swords.
41. "They will burn your houses with fire and execute judgments on you in the sight of many women. Then I will stop you from playing the harlot, and you will also no longer pay your lovers.
42. "So I will calm My fury against you and My jealousy will depart from you, and I will be pacified and angry no more.
43. "Because you have not remembered the days of your youth but have enraged Me by all these things, behold, I in turn will bring your conduct down on your own head," declares the Lord GOD, "so that you will not commit this lewdness on top of all your {other} abominations.
44. "Behold, everyone who quotes proverbs will quote {this} proverb concerning you, saying, 'Like mother, like daughter.'
45. "You are the daughter of your mother, who loathed her husband and children. You are also the sister of your sisters, who loathed their husbands and children. Your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite.
46. "Now your older sister is Samaria, who lives north of you with her daughters; and your younger sister, who lives south of you, is Sodom with her daughters.
47. "Yet you have not merely walked in their ways or done according to their abominations; but, as if that were too little, you acted more corruptly in all your conduct than they.
48. "As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "Sodom, your sister and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done.
49. "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy.
50. "Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw {it.}
51. "Furthermore, Samaria did not commit half of your sins, for you have multiplied your abominations more than they. Thus you have made your sisters appear righteous by all your abominations which you have committed.
52. "Also bear your disgrace in that you have made judgment favorable for your sisters. Because of your sins in which you acted more abominably than they, they are more in the right than you. Yes, be also ashamed and bear your disgrace, in that you made your sisters appear righteous.
53. "Nevertheless, I will restore their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and along with them your own captivity,
54. in order that you may bear your humiliation and feel ashamed for all that you have done when you become a consolation to them.
55. "Your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state, and you with your daughters will {also} return to your former state.
56. "As {the name of} your sister Sodom was not heard from your lips in your day of pride,
57. before your wickedness was uncovered, so now you have become the reproach of the daughters of Edom and of all who are around her, of the daughters of the Philistines--those surrounding {you} who despise you.
58. "You have borne {the penalty of} your lewdness and abominations," the LORD declares.
59. For thus says the Lord GOD, "I will also do with you as you have done, you who have despised the oath by breaking the covenant.
The Covenant Remembered
60. "Nevertheless, I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you.
61. "Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you receive your sisters, {both} your older and your younger; and I will give them to you as daughters, but not because of your covenant.
62. "Thus I will establish My covenant with you, and you shall know that I am the LORD,
63. so that you may remember and be ashamed and never open your mouth anymore because of your humiliation, when I have forgiven you for all that you have done," the Lord GOD declares.

 

No need to answer me skypair I'm just responding to this error. :) Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad..."Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Rom 9:11,13.

1TI 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. 13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

Seems like Paul takes issue with you, he was saved by his unbelief. haha! :)

john.

 

We can just skip the verses we don't like, say...verse 12?

 

Ahhhh..... i'm sure you've got him there bro........... j/k. I'm sure John loves all of scripture... he has a very good habit of quoting it all in all of his defenses of his theology. He does a better job of it than anyone I have witnessed on the bb. I'm sure you have him whipped here though...lol. :)

 

Hello reformed.

That's good of you brother, thanks. :) Bless you as well.

Thanks for the permission webdog. :) Any other helpful hints I'll be glad of.

john.

 

No permission granted. Don't blame me for your eisegetical errors...

 

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

See? God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

Amen....................!

 

Hmmm...I'm not sure I agree with you here SP -- But I'm not sure I DISAGREE either. This is a novel approach...Responses -- Lemme see:

(1) Belief does not necessarily = faith

(2) Faith is indeed a "gift" from God, inherent in humanity, and freed through prevenient grace to receive or reject God

(3) Justication comes as a "part" of salvation, or of "faith."

(4) Sanctification is given positionally by the indwelling Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation, and progressively as we grow in grace and truth -- as we become more Christlike and yielded to the Holy Spirit.

(5) The "gift of faith" as described in I Corinthians 12:7-11 is a special enduement from God, and should not be confused with the "measure of faith" which belongs to every man and which may be "activated" or "enabled" by the Holy SPirit prior to Salvation...

Hmmm, just my thoughts...

JDale

 

I think these things must be "hashed out" among free willers. There is obviously an answer to what the Calvinists can see.

One issue is belief vs. faith. Belief is our part in salvation -- belief that is not in vain. Even Calvinists agree that we must believe -- they presume God gives us that along with faith.

Another issue is justification vs. sanctification. Calvinists actually see that men can be sanctified into salvation! That is, as one radio preacher I heard said, "we are growing the elect to salvation." Another's invitation was to come forward and "give more of yourself to Christ today." Well, that is nothing more than sanctifying yourself without being justified in my book, the Bible. How do you set yourself apart to a God you haven't established a relationship with?? You can't "learn to be a Christian." You can "learn to ACT like a Christian" but you can't "learn [be sanctified] to be a Christian" until you are saved/JUSTIFIED, right?

"Measure of faith" is for AFTER you are saved. Faith is a GIFT (1Cor 12:7-11), right? You don't get the "gifts" until you are saved! until you believe! And no -- faith in God is not "prevenient." We are given the ability to believe and to have faith in anything. But faith in true God is a "gift," wouldn't you agree? There IS a "prevenient grace" -- I believe it is in our soul. It is "God awareness" that resides along with self awareness. We recognize it as "conscience." Again, it is one of the dispensations of God's revelation of Himself.

Your 4th point is well expressed. Now just take that to where you see justification, sanctification and glorification as "stages" of "complete salvation." I know that is hard. Calvin never saw it but the OT saints were ONLY justified. They have not been sanctified yet with the indwelling Spirit yet. Do you see that?

Calvin, with his "covenant of grace" (which CANNOT be found in scripture) never distinguished between OT and NT salvation. Yet herein lies the flaw -- the OT saints weren't indwelt/sanctified by the Spirit. They WILL BE in the MK after they are resurrected among the "just," Mt 24:31, POSTRIB.

skypair

 

There was an 'old saying' that goes...

God works, therefore You must work.

There is a well-designed order of the work of grace: prevening, convicting, justifying, and sanctifying grace. This order is drawn from and found abundantly in the post-Augustinian ecumenical tradition. We have fallen from our original condition of uprightness, yet within this fallenness grace is at work ceaselessly to free us from guilt and sin. The diverse outworking of grace is phased in four dimensions, working contextually in each according to individuated need....

Prevenient Grace... the saving work of God begins not by our being attentive to prevening grace, but by grace that attends us and awakens our attentiveness. The focus is not first of all upon our cooperative initiative by which we imagine ourselves coming early to God, pleading to cooperate. Rather, the initiative comes from grace prevening prior to our first awakening to the mercy and holiness of God.

Thus prevenient Grace elicits "the first wish to please God, the first dawn of light concerning his will, and the first slight transient conviction of having sinned against him. Grace works ahead of us to draw use toward faith, to begin its work in us. Even the first fragile intuition of conviction of sin, the first intimation of our need for God, is the work of preparing, prevening grace, which draws us gradually toward wishing to please God. Grace is working guietly at the point of our desiring, bringing use in time to despair over our own righteousness, challenging our perverse dispositions, so that our distorted wills cease gradually to resist the gifts of God.

Grace works antecedently to conversion to convict freedom of its fallenness, and its need for a radical reversal, repentance, a reversal that is only possible in view of God's justifying grace, which meets us on the cross, of which we in time may become aware. At each stage we are called to receive and respond to the grace being incrementally given. Prevenient grace does not justify, but readies for justification, giving us the desire for faith, which is the one condition of justification.

The chief function of prevenient grace is to bring the person to a state of nonresistance to subsequent forms of grace. Prevenient grace is that grace that goes before us to prepare us for more grace, the grace that makes it possible for persons to take the first steps toward saving grace.

It is my sincere belief that 'many' individuals mistake the first blossoms of 'prevenient' grace as 'saving' grace and continue to live a sort of half-life in the Christian Faith which bares 'little' real Fruit of the Spirit and while having some 'sense' of salvation actually live out their lives 'unsaved'.

 

Hello bound.

MT 11:28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

And what we find in scripture is, RO 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Heb 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.
Heb 10:9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Acts 9:3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" 5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6 "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." :)

I think that is better said by saying we are drawn to the Object of our faith we are not drawn to faith. John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Tim 1:13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

But you are comparing Christians to a false doctrine are you not? If a man is told he must make a decision then as far as he is concerned he has jumped through the hoops and believes himself saved, he might be he might not be.
RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

JN 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "
JN 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.'
Regeneration must precede faith.

john.

 

First, Your contention of Rom 9 being about salvation is a vain one, and your use the Jacob and Esau is very redundant in your misinformation.

Seed is the key word and it refers to 'a people from a person'.
As in - "in Isaac shall thy (Abrahams) seed (people) be called". And we know that Isaac's son Jacob (of whom God changed his name to Israel) is the father of the seed (people) of Abraham and Isaac, of whom it is also called "and of Jacob".
See in Gen that there are two Nations that God sees in Abrahams two sons (Ishmael, and Isaac)

And low and behold we see the SAME thing with Rebekah. God speaks concerning two NATIONS.
You may being dieing to ask: And where does scripture say that Allan? Hmmmm...

Do you see these two babies in the eyes of God reprenting two Nations, two manner of people. Paul is utilizing this to show his point concerning God's soveriegnty according to his purpose NOT Salvation. Look at the scriptures again:

Did you happen to see the Direct Quote Paul pulls from. It concerns TWO NATIONS and only Nations NOT the individuals. Thoug both Nations deserve to be justly punished God is merciful to one according that the purpose of election will stand.

If it does refer to them as individuals, then Please show me scripture WHERE it states that Esau was EVER a servant of Jacob. THis is KEY to what Paul is speaking of here since he uses the prophesy to illistrate his point - Election to and of Purpose. This is why it references BEFORE either had done Good or Evil... it isn't about who is the best, more religious, or more desirous and so the scripture speaks truly when it states:

So now that we see this verse we can note that is refers to God deciding who he will use for what purpose because of His own decision and not on the account or ability of any man. This verse is not and does not speak to salvation, but in fact it speaks to the issue that God can use whomever He wishes to fulfill His purpose.

Therefore, the passage of "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated" is not a reference speaking of them indiviually to and of salvation, but to the poeples God had chosen or elected to fulfill His purpose regarding the bringing forth of a People unto Himself, to give them He testimonies and Law, and through whom the Saviour would come, and to the people whom God passed over which had all natural and earthly rights to have that honor (Esau being the first born). God chooses whom He will use and who He will not.

Is God unrighteous for purposing Jacob to be the people of God and the lineage of Christ, and Esau was not. No, because both were the same before the Lord and God chose Jacob as the purveyor of His purpose. Again Not speaking of salvation but the Purposes of God and through whom He would use. God spoke to Moses concerning this same thing regarding use for a purpose - NOT salvation. Moses was the representive of Gods people just as pharaoh is/was. And though God spoke to both it was regarding the whole of their people.

Pharaoh here is spoken to, so maybe this is where it God deals with individuals. Nope again. Though God did speak this to Pharaoh look back at what was fully said:

Pharaoh is the head the very voice of his people, Egypt. The plague that God sent was against pharaoh AND his people. He represented all of Egypt. So we see that though God spoke to Pharaoh of judgment God's judgment was actually upon all of Egypt through him as the head of a people. Though it was to the one it was dispursed upon them all. God raised up or allowed to be Pharaoh but there would be no Pharaoh without the people which make up Egypt whom He also raised up or allowed to be. Notice it says "for to show in THEE my power..." Now it is interesting that God showed His power in Egypt who was ruled by Pharaoh. God did nothing IN Pharaoh which showed forth His power to the Nations but He did show forth His power in Egypt and the surrounding nations trembled at what God did IN Egypt! They were raised up or allowed to be born (even knowing their rebeliousness) for Gods purpose to show forth the Glory of the Lord to the World. And Gods purpose was fulfilled! It is about purpose not salvation. The very next verse shows this same thing when read in context.

Can you not see this is speaking of God working among men to the fulfilling of His purpose. You must bring to the text the presupposition it is speaking of salvation here. It have have implications towards that effect but the scriptures do not speak (here at least) of salvation but election for the purpose of God (Making a people and preparing the way for His Christ).


It is about election to purpose NOT salvation.



PS - Paul was not saved by his unbelief. Paul was saved because he believed.
He did ungodly things being IN ignorance and UNBELIEF.
Paul was considered 'faithful' and appointed to His service.

 

I have some agreements with you -- and some disagreements:

(1) Belief and faith are differentiated in Scripture -- but our belief BECOMES faith when we place it in the proper object -- or PERSON -- of Jesus Christ. This, of course, is made possible by the enabling of the Holy SPirit through Prevenient Grace.

(2) No one can "learn" their way into being a Christian. A relationship must be established first -- through the New Birth. Now, that doesn't mean one has a "Damascus Road" experience with thunder and a blinding light, but faith and repentance must come before we can "learn" and "grow in grace."

(3) Faith may be understood as a "gift of God" -- an ability given to all men -- since the creation (Hebrews 11!) However, the "gift of faith" described in I Corinthians 12:7-11 was/is given explicitly to those who have been indwelt by the Holy SPirit in the Church Age. This is a supernatural enduement of faith for extraordinary purposes in God's plan. This "gift" does not and can not = "faith" because, as you pointed out earlier, OT Saints were not indwelt by the HS during the Dispensations in which they lived.

(4) Conscience is a universal component of God's work within men, but it does not compose the WHOLE of God's work in drawing men to Himself. Even those who have never heard of God, and who have not heard the Gospel, are by nature given a conscience that "accuses or excuses" them. The Holy SPirit uses conscience, as well as general revelation and common grace to "awaken" men to the light -- this "awakening" is what we call "prevenient grace."

(5) Indeed, Salvation has a past, present and future dimension. We WERE justified, we ARE BEING sanctified, and we WILL BE glorified.

(6) Salvation -- no matter what dispensation, has ALWAYS been by grace, through FAITH (Hebrews 11). That was true to both OT and NT believers. The operation of the HS to and in believers was different, but the means of salvation has not changed.

(7) The OT Saints got all they needed upon the resurrection of Christ, when according to the Gospels many of the "saints" were raised and walked on the earth before ascending to heaven. They no longer await anything because they received all they needed when Jesus declared "it is finished."

JDale