Prevenient Grace

Good stuff Allan!

JDale

 

What jdale said ^ :thumbs:
It's so refreshing to see Scripture exegesis the way the Bible meant.

 

Hey JADALE and Webdog ! Way to to go ! You all really know how to turn Scripture on its head !

 

I'm listening Allan. Now what is the purpose if it is not salvation?

Also, is corporate dealing with only the group as a whole or is individuals also being recognized here? I don't think you will try to say that the corporate deals only with the group and not individuals will you? Thanks brother. I'm interested. I've heard this argument before, but maybe you can explain it better for me. I don't see how we can leave out individuals within the group. Also, I don't see how you can say that God's purposes is not salvation. We will see. Don't think I am not going to bring the other side of this argument into the equation. :)

 

24. {even} us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
25. As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.' "
26. "AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."
27. Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;
28. FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY."
29. And just as Isaiah foretold, "UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH."
30. What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31. but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at {that} law.
32. Why? Because {they did} not {pursue it} by faith, but as though {it were} by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33. just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Is this calling a national calling? Is it not to salvation? Isn't righteousness being made right with God? Is it not a legal act by God?

You have not convinced me Allan. Good try though.

 

Agreed.

Exactly. We can't just assume that because we appear to understand the scriptures that God has "elected" us, right?

Well, I believe the OT saints had faith, don't you (Heb 11)? It was given to them which believed, right? IOW, I don't think the pattern for justification has changed -- I believe the process of sanctification has changed, don't you?

I believe that the ability to have faith is given -- that all men have awareness of God -- that the Holy Spirit operates from outside all men drawing them -- that they can believe whereupon God gives them faith.

Let me go review what you said about it. I think I agree.

Absolutely! That would obviate the work of the Spirit!

Good. I don't know that I would say "awakening" is "prevenient grace" because too many Calvinists would assert that you are saying "prevenient grace" is, then, "regeneration." I like the first part of your explanation though. :D

Yup. And now for a "test" -- do you see the justification being of the soul eternally, the sanctification being of the spirit progressively, and the glorification being of the body eventually??

See, Calvies miss this totally. They can go direct to sanctification without ever establishing their justification because they are "passively" elected.

Amen! Which is why most do not see dispensationalsim.

Not really. The didn't receive the new covenant" promised in Jer 31:32, JDale. They didn't receive the Abrahamic land covenant wherein they possess their possessions. They didn't receive the Davidic Covenant by which they will rule over the Gentiles. This and the fact that they are to be sanctified as we are (while they are in the flesh) tells us that they will be resurrected bodily into the MK. (cf: Psa 50:3-5, Job 14:13-15, 19:25-28, Dan 12:2, Isa 26:19-21, Ezek 37:12-14, Mt 13:44, Mt 22:11, etal.) This is actually a recent assertion of LaHaye and others which I have held for quite some time developing my own "proofs" as I have listed.

skypair

 

I pretty much agree with this but do you have scriptural support?

Well, see, this would be my fear also.

skypair

 

See, I think in order to interpret this, we need to understand why Jesus wasn't accepted as King on Palm Sunday. They (presumably Israel, right?) were waving palm branches and laying them in His way as if He would be King. Who was it that rejected Him?? Who was it the "didn't know the hour of her visitation??

I would suggest it was the religious leaders. And when we talk here about the Gentiles accepting Him, we are basically noting the same thing -- religious leaders. And if there come an apostacy, it will be from the same place.

I don't think you have chosen a good passage to prove your point, rb.

skypair

 

basically the same thing? I don't buy it. But you are entitled to your opinion. I beleive in the priesthood of the believer.

 

Hello johnp.

Weary and burdened by what? 'Take my yoke upon'... are you suggesting that 'we' actually have to 'do' something? Eek!!!

What do you think one of the 'fruits' of the Spirit is... peace.

Put to death the 'old man' and live in Him and you will have it.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. - Phil. 2:12-13

As much as we need to recognize 'God which worketh in us' we also need to recognize He calls us to 'work out your own salvation with fear and trembling'.

I guess what I would like to point out is that 'all' works finds it's foundation in Him. God working in us enalbes our working and co-working with God. What appears to be a contradiction (that grace elicits freedom) is a call to action that attests the ground of its action. We can work because God is working in us.

Paul's call to "work out your own salvation" does not Pelagianly imply that one may work without the prevening grace of God, but rather only with it. yet the co-working (sunergia, cooperation) design of grace asks for our responsive willing, through which it is God who is working concurrently in us to will and do God's own good pleasure.

No stage of saving faith, not the slightest motion, is a matter of merited goodness. God comes our way not when we merit it, but before we merit it. precisely while we are yet sinners. God is helping us come to the desire to do the good through prevening grace, then to enable a result of good action from that good will.

God comes personally to humanity in the form of a servant. This calls each hearer of the gospel to have that mind that was also in Christ Jesus, who though he was in the form of God counted not equality with God as something to be grasped (Phil. 2:1-6). This is the mind in which we are called to share. This pivotal Christoplogical passage concludes with the imperative, which calls us to work out our own salvation, not that salvation is our work but that it involves our free response to grace. We are to work because it is God who is working in us to enable our working.

Sanctifying grace works both by gradual and instantaneous means. We can not deny that some do experience the Spirit's perfect work as coming to them in an instantaneous flood of consummating grace. Knowing that grace can work powerfully to change life radically in a single sweeping experience, we can not therefore ignore it, for it is a fact of scripture but nor can we deny that grace works quietly and gradually and over a period of time, patiently within the recalcitrant confines of human freedom. I know many such as myself were involved in a lengthly process of receiving it gradually.

Meanwhile, believers learn to cooperate daily with grace by the means of grace: by searching the Scriptures, which attest the history of grace; by attending fellowship at Church; by making use of the ordinances of God; by becoming attentive to conscience; by sharing in common prayer, godly admonition, and good council.

I believe you are conflating Prevenient Grace with Sanctifying Grace. Prevenient Grace leads to conviction Sanctifying Grace leads us closer to our Saviour.

This would be an expression of all the stages of Grace: Prevenient, Convicting, Justifying and Sanctifying Graces. This is a wonderful outline of God's renewing work in man.

It is my opinion that this is an error of hyper-calvinism which seeks to remove absolutely all and any activity of the creature in the act of salvation. Frankly I don't believe that this is a normative interpretation of Scripture and so I reject it as a valid exegesis. I think there is 'a lot' that Calvin got right but this expression isn't one of them if it can even be attributed to him.

Define Regeneration for me so that I can understand your usage of the term? What you call 'regeneration' may well be what I call 'the work of prevening grace'. In a real sense, prevening grace enlivens the conscience. You may simply be conflating the whole process of salvation here.

 

I think we mostly agree SP. A couple of places where our views may diverge:

(1) I used the term "awakening" not as though it is an abrupt, alarm clock moment where the HS drags us kicking and screaming out of our spiritual slumber, but as a gradual "enightenment" -- a gradual coming to the light, sensing and seeing the Truth of the Gospel. Though the event of salvation is immediate in terms of receiving Jesus, Prevenient Grace" is that process of becoming aware and awake to the Gospel, enabling us to trust Christ.

(2) I believe all men have a general awareness of God -- Natural Revelation, common grace, and even conscience can and do declare that their is a God. Man can supress even that much knowledge -- and be lost. Should man response positively, the HS will, I believe, give more "light." I do NOT think, however, that a "general awareness" of God can bring one to salvation in and of itself. ONLY Jesus saves.

(3) In speaking of OT Saints I was referring to their "completeness" in spiritual matters. If you are speaking eschatologically, then Romans 9-11 clearly demonstrates that God has a purpose for Israel in the future tense. Those who have died in faith in the past tense, however, while they will be present in the MK, will not be returned to "the flesh" in the temporal sense. They will have their resurrection bodies in the MK. Thus, no "sanctification" of those bodies is needed. Those Jews who believe (and survive) during the Tribulation period -- along with the Tribulation Saints among the Gentiles -- will enter the MK in their fleshly bodies, and will be heir to (and in need of) sanctification -- even during the Kingdom Age.

Of course, that may be a discussion for another thread -- on Eschatology...

JDale

 

Didn't you say that not all are given prevenient grace? I think you did, but I may have mis-understood you. If not all are given prevenient grace, are only the elect given this? Would this not be the same as regeneration as people have pointed out before?

 

I agree (I must be getting sick. That's, what, the 5th time I have said "I agree" on BB aready today? Something's wrong with me! :laugh:).

Yup.

Yeah -- it's another discussion for sure. I see them resurrected into "terrestrially glorified" (1Cor 15:40) bodies meaning bodies like ours except 1) no 2nd death, 2) no procreation, 3) probably sinless, but 4) they will be "flesh and blood" again until the postMK rapture (Rev 20:11 - "earth fled away").

skypair

 

If I did I didn't mean to. It is my belief that prevenient grace is at some level extended to 'all'...

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself. - Jn. 12:32

I honestly don't preclude a possible conflation of graces or activity of regeneration with hyper-calvinist or even moderate Calvinist soteriology in comparison with Arminian soteriology. The two are actually very similar 'except' for the more elaborate teaching of grace and sunergia.

 

Well actually...... I was quoting JDale... :laugh: But since you brought it up... not everyone gets to hear the Gospel.... so how can it be extended to all? There is salvation in no other name than Jesus, yes? Thank you brother.

 

I'm sorry we are all using similar terminology and these quotes all look the same to me... :laugh:

Yes this is challenging if we assume that one 'must' hear the Gospel in order for prevening grace to regenerate them to a salvific relationship with our Lord and Saviour.

Let me think about how to express this with sensitivity.... :love2:

 

Hello bound.

Weary and burdened is a condition isn't it? :) By what, by whatever is wearisome I should imagine, I should imagine that would be different for different people but Jesus is open to whoever is weary and burdened. A quick bit of evangelism. :) How old are you?

Some think peace means the absence of war do they not? A Good Tree bears good fruit and love is the most exellent way.

I find living sacrifices tend to wriggle off the altar, don't you find that?

Then, if you will forgive me, you have not worked it out yet for when you have worked it out you will find that perfect love drives out tremblings. :) There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18.

Are you actually saying God is responsible for all sins? Eek!!! :)

As I said a while ago, and I think it bears repeating, anything good coming out of me was just Jesus passing through.
Eph 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
LK 17:7 "Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, `Come along now and sit down to eat'? 8 Would he not rather say, `Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? 9 Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10 So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, `We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.' "

Same again. Are you actually saying God is responsible for all sins? Eek!!! If not and you mean only righteous acts are meant then show me a righteous act and I will agree with you. It's only imputed righteousness we have not actual therefore our sinful nature, the old man, will have it's way with us.

I'll come back later as I was trying to reply to Allan.

john.

 

I said all are given "prevenient grace" according to the extent which they respond positively to the light given via conscience, general/natural revelation and common grace. Sorry if I was not clear.

If those who have never heard the gospel respond positively to the light they have in these three arenas, it is my belief that "prevenient grace" will bear them along, drawing them toward the Gospel. If they supress or resist the light they are given, then they are held eternally responsible for their failure, though they may never actually hear "the Gospel" (Romans 2).

JDale

 

You will have to explain how that happens to me. Maybe I am simply not getting what you are saying. If someone responds to whatever light they have... then they will eventually have the Gospel? Many respond to the light they think they have ....... and they end up being scientologists or new agers or ........................

 

RB:

If they respond to "the light they have" and become Scientologists or or New Agers, well, then they've supressed their knowledge of God -- the witness of their conscience, common grace and natural/general revelation, have they not? As Romans 1 testifies, " though the knew God, they glorified Him not as God...."

The only change I would make to the sentence you wrote above is, "If someone responds [positively] to whatever light they have....then they will eventually have the opportunity to hear the Gospel." Then, Prevenient Grace having enabled them to believe, they may -- or may not.

JDale