Prevenient Grace

I would posit that our Lord was not speaking concerning physical weariness but of a yeilding state, borne of convicting grace, that works within man to repentence...

And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. - Micah 4:3

I guess, ultimately, I'm not too concerned what 'some' think as the 'peace' which I am speaking is borne out of the digging into and dislodging the roots of sin, cutting those roots (gradually or quickly, whether by sawing or snipping) so as to enable the believer actually to live out the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Personally I'm just as untight about quietism and antinomianism as I am blatant sinners. I can't abid any of them....

I'm willing to go out on a limb and say I honestly doubt that you have worked it out either. My guess is you are conflating justification with Sanctification. Justification isn't the end, it's only the beginning... which is what Paul was alluding to.

I guess if one is a 'hard-determinist' one could make that argument... Of course, I'm not a 'hard-determinist' so it is clearly not my position.

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. - II Peter 1:3-11

In your zeal to promote Total Depravity I believe you strip us from our participation in the divine nature... not as slaves but as heirs with Him who is first among many brothers....

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. - Romans 8:17

Now don't misunderstand; I'm not disputing Total Depravity, in principle, I am only suggesting Sanctifying Grace works to restore regenerate man to a closer and closer participation in the divine nature.

Nope.

I believe... :applause: ...and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh... Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. - Galatians 5:16; 20-21

Sanctification perfects us in the Believer's Walk.

 

Bound:

Do you mean "perfects" in the sense of "perfection," or "perfects" in the sense of maturity in our walk?

JDale

 

There is no perfection in man that does not admit of continual increase while he still breathes. It is not a static notion but rather dynamic, a teleiosis and not a perfectus if you will.

Sorry I failed to make that more clear. :tonofbricks:

 

Read it again brother. The purpose (in context) is about choosing 'whom' He will/desires to bring about His purposed plan in bringing forth Him a people (His Chosen Nation [Israel] ), His written Word (Pentateuch), and a living Savior.

If it dealt with both group and individaul, we have the scriptures flip/flopping around like a fish. In one instance you have group, then individuals, then group, - oops - no that should be individuals, and then back to group.

No, the context is set, and the imagry is ALREADY established as the individuals are representives of their Peoples and this is from the beginning and continues on through. Romans 9 Deals with Israels Past, Romans 10 is Israels present (during that Time period), and Romans 11 deals with Israels future and with us and Israel together.

Just compare what I showed to the scripture and see if it does not bear out what I stated. That is all. I know you have another view, but if you do not seriously look at a view OUTSIDE your own theological frame work - HOW my friend, will you be able to see what they are saying until you take of first the glasses you placed on yourself to see no other way but that one??
Is that not the marks of a teachable spirit?
Notice I didn't say put away your understanding and follow blindly. But how will one see unless they have a teachable heart? That means TO ME - I must not use my theology to as the test of truth or error but the scritpure being presented in context of itself FIRST.

I personally believe that though theology is great and helps us become established, we sometimes make our theology the Word and lean on it more so than the Word. So when others ask us to see what they are saying our first responce is pre-conditioned to theological constructs and not exigetical to the scripture they as us to reveiw. IMO of course.

But back to your question:
It does not matter what I think but what the scripture in context and according to its content is saying. In Romans 9 it IS speaking to the whole and NOT individuals, especially when you follow the consistant imagry set forth by Paul. Now if you do not GO BACK (to the OT) and look up what was actaully said and therefore the context in which Paul is using it (via the Holy Ghost who wrote both Testaments) you can make it say whatever you would like. But I showed where it is speaking expressly of Nations and in case you want to use Moses as the dispute God back to Ex 33 and get the context of "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy". Just a hint though, Israel got caught in Idolatry (golden calf) and God threatened to consume them if they did not put the ornaments of Idolatry away. God was so mad in fact that He threatened Moses with this:

:laugh: That set Moses up right I bet after all he went through. Kill everyone and start all over with Moses. But God had mercy and Chapter 33 speaks to the mercy BEING TOWARD A NATION. That is the context. But don't take my word - I'm an idiot most times. :laugh:
Let God be true and Allan a liar - That is the motto I use in my Bible Study Classes and Preaching.

Because it is not about salvaiton but about God electing a Nation for/to His purpose. That is what the scripture shows in context NOT eternal salvation which (I agree would and MUST) deal with individuals.

 

Good point an glad you brought it up, brother.

This will kind of rough shod, so up front forgive me. :)
First, I never stated salvation is not talked about, I stated it was not the context of the afore mentioned verses.

Now, let us pick up where I left off, so we can see the context of what you bring up. :thumbs:

Remember, as I stated in a previous post - this in concerning Differing Nations or groups of People. Just as Moses represented Israel and Pharoah, Egypt. It was speaking of God choosing a people and passing over others.

Then vs 19 - Why does God fault, who can resist His will?
Fault with what?
We see previously that God used Pharoah to show forth His power that His name might be proclaim in all the earth. How will that Happen? By Israel leaving there in Power of God and conquering other great Nations in the Power of God. We know this is what happened according to the OT.

So the question is phrased from those whom God used to show forth His power and who His chosen People were. Remember Paul is giving an historical account thus far.
God, why do you find fault - Not individually but against a People. WHo resists His will or purpose.
IOW- Why harden us and then judge us for the sake of your glory, who can go against your purpose or will.

In essense God is stating the Pagan world understood that if God wanted to do something there was nothing that could stop God (unless it be another God - but WE know better :) ) So why do WHAT He did the WAY He did it?

Answer:

Oh man, who are you to question God? Shall that which is made say to the potter "why did you make me like this".

First - Again remember this is refering to a Nation or group of people not individuals.
The "man" spoken of, depending on context CAN mean single person, OR mankind in the plural form. Since scripture is speaking in a National or group sense it is used in the plural to be "mankind"; something distinct from God.

Why did you make me like this?
Much like Pharoah the representitive of Egypt who was 'raised up' or allowed to come into being (with God KNOWING what they would choose to do and be), we see them questioning God for making them KNOWING the way they are, and not in a way they would have choosen so they could be used of God to in a positive sense. And in God doing so, they complain He still finds fault with them doing just what He knew they would.
However, It's not about salvation but how they are used for Gods purposes to establish and bring forth His plan into being.
(remember earlier, in the national sense, [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy) And that is the answer God replies back.

Can the Potter not make the vessels in line with His choosing, to be used for His purpose. One unto Honor (Chosen By God for His purpose - Israel) and another to dishonor (rejected by God for His purpose - all others being the Gentile World). Note the vessels HERE are in the singlar.

The Gods plan is more than a one moment thing as Paul speaks to "if God endured" (carried along) with great patience the vessels of wrath fitted (completely worthy or made worthy) to destruction.
Here is a very odd thing. God carries these rebellious people along (allows them to be) until they are have completely rendered themselves absolutely and completely worthy of destruction. He made them knowing what they WILL do but God "raised them up" for a purpose as well - Just as He will show forth His glory in Israel, He will do the same in them.
This played out in the next verse:

Now the temporal sense is in view but that doesn't negate the eternal which is implied in both cases regarding God glorifying Himself in both vessels. But again here it's not salvation but speaking specifically to the purpose of God concerning Israel. We see this is STILL the view as we continue.

Now taken by itself, you would almost have a case. However the sentence structure in the Greek is showcased here in the English by the "," and the end of verse 23. Let us place them together and see what it states:
Rom 9:23 & 24 -

Now WHO is the "us" in this portion?
It's the vessels of mercy as stated consistantly above, is Israel. Paul is speaking as a Jew NOT a Christian and you see that in the context. "even us (Israel) whom He called, NOT THE JEWS ONLY but the Gentiles. This calling still has to do with Israel as a Nation in the past NOT present. We KNOW in the OT that God called to the gentiles also.ie. Ninivah, Babylon and others. Scripture even states in the later times Egypt will be one of Gods people. :eek:
Anyway as we keep going you see this is still in a national sense of God deal with the Nation. Look and see:

The prophesy:

Who are those NOT His People in the Prophesy here; Look:

Also reference by God is the wife issue:

This is without a doubt about Israel in a National sense and NOT NT believers.


My time is up, but I will get back the rest later.
Have a good day my Brother.

 

Okay, yeah...And this explanation REALLY helps! :laugh:

JDale

 

Allan:

Your exposition and analysis of Romans 9 is right on. Excellent posts!

JDale

 

I think the problem for rb is that he sees nothing in man for the Spirit to "latch onto" in "drawing" him. Man, to rb, either is "elect" and "regenerated" and thus "hears" the "gospel" (which term I am sure he uses loosely in this context) or he cannot ever hear the gospel. Is that right, rb?

But here's the thing --- Reformers see man as "spiritually dead." That is, since their "spirits" are their minds, emotions, and wills, they are BRAIN DEAD. The thing that the Holy Spirit must "latch onto" is our spirit. It is NOT dead in sin -- only the soul is such upon the knowing commission of sin.

But since Calvies cannot distinguish between spirit and soul, they are left with man being totally "dead" to God. Thus, it doesn't strictly matter to a Calvie what "gospel" they hear because that is God's bailiwick.

Does that advance the issue to where both of you can understand one another?

skypair

 

Thank you for the exegesis brother. I am listening..... and trying to look *not* through my calvinist eyes. That is why I told you earlier, "I am listening". I do agree that this is dealing with the nation of Isreal. I can not help but think that this is also dealing with individuals, and the future Isreal, which I think is not only the Jews, but Gentiles also. I think that we as believers are the future Isreal. This is why I started the thread "does our eschatology determine our soteriology". Maybe you can see that now.
I am truly dealing with the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man, Allan. I have come to the conclusion that they both are intimate. I would say that there is a fine line between them, but that would be incorrect. There is no line between them. If we are elect we will be responsible. If we are responsible we will be elect. I'm saying this in a salvic way.
In the thread "prevenient grace".... I see how with many who hold that view, if we simply put regeneration in place of prevenient grace, we believe the same thing. The major difference is that I do not think God gives prevenient grace to all. Maybe you can see what I have been wrestling with, and the reason for the threads I have started. Many people would probably think I started the threads to promote Calvinism. I started the thread so that maybe I could learn and grow in the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
I do have my eyes open Allan. You are a great friend, and I thank you for your time to try to help me with my growth. Thanks bro. Have a great weekend! Ps Praise God for your new church start. Get ready bro, satan is going to attack with about all he's got. I know.................

 

Allan is in a new church plant! Praise God! Allan, I'm praying for you as well. Would love to hear more about it!

JDale

 

Ditto for me, Allan. I pray God blesses your ministry there! :praying:

skypair

 

All of us come to Scripture with a certain theological view . Mine has been shaped by years of viewing the Scripture in light of what it says . You who object to the doctrine of grace claim to be objective when it comes to studying the Bible -- you don't let your preconveived notions sway you . Well , that is silly . Your theological grids are indeed a reality .

Allan , Allan , Allan . In Romans 9 individuals are really being singled-out . Jacob , Esau and Pharaoh were individuals . They were distinct persons .

You're right , Romans 9 is not about "salvaiton" , but is indeed about salvation ! God has mercy on whom He will have mercy . That has nothing to do with salvation ?! He hardens whom he wants -- does not that mean He withholds salvation to some ?

"The objects of His wrath -- prepared for destruction ." Does that not refer to the Lord's will for those He condemns ? How about the "objects of His mercy , whom He prepared in advance for glory." ? Doesn't this have everything to do with their salvation ? Isn't it related to Romans 8:30 ? If so , are you denying that Romans 8:30 has anything to do with salvation ?!

 

When you see "as it is written"...you need to go back and see what was written. Clearly it is dealing with nations.

 

Rip:

I don't recall that I ever made the claim that I was "objective" in approaching my interpretation of Scripture. I would agree -- that's hogwash.

I think it's interesting that you say you view "scripture in light of what it says." Well, I believe what Scripture says -- EVERY WORD. However, my hermeneutic in interpreting and applying Scripture doesn't stop at "what it says." I believe we must also ask WHAT IT MEANS.

A proper Biblical hermeneutic will take into account not just the use of the words of the Greek text, but what those words meant in their cultural setting, and who the audience was, and what the examples they used in their explanations meant.

In considering this -- and in having personally studied ALL these passages we've discussed here -- for over 25 years, these are the convictions I've come to. I also respect those who don't see these issues the exact same way I do.

Simply put, this means that I would never say to someone I believe is a brother that they "object to the doctrine of grace." I believe in the "doctrine of grace," just not your particular take on it.

Blessings,

JDale

 

Yes , we all have theological grids .

 

Yes indeed Rip -- but our hermeneutic ought to be focused as much as possible to filter out extraneous personal opinion and get at the original intent of the writer of the passage....

Wouldn't you agree?

JDale

 

" Extraneous personal opinion" is rife here with philosophical notions abounding on the nonCal side . And JDALE , the strange extrapolations you have come up with from things I have written are examples of a very poor hermeneutic at work .

 

Oh come on Rip! Your hermeneutic isn't THAT bad -- we can help you work through it! Just a few adjustments and corrections, here and there...



JDale

 

Post #219

Allan, you say that Romans nine is talking about God's purpose in election to Israel the nation, elect to a purpose. How does this fit in with, RO 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children....?

If you have answered this point or someone else has just say it was answered as I plan to catch up with the posts. :)

john.

 

JDale. Would you explain what Paul says at RO 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children....?

webdog. exegete this for me please, :), RO 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children....?

One more thing. I don't see how we can leave out individuals within the group. (reformed.) What's with the nation thing, how does that pan out? He chooses a nation but not the people? I have spent a considerable amount of my brain power on trying to understand this point.
First - Again remember this is refering to a Nation or group of people not individuals. I just don't get it.

john.