And actually be fulfilling the word of God, at least say Dr wayne grudem might view it?
BTW...
didn't Joshua give 'alter call" to those who would chose to serve the true God?
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Reformed Altar Calls?
- Thread starter preacher4truth
- Start date
And actually be fulfilling the word of God, at least say Dr wayne grudem might view it?
BTW...
didn't Joshua give 'alter call" to those who would chose to serve the true God?
If the Holy spirit is sufficient then why have spiritual gifts? Why would Paul have addressed the elder in Acts 20 about how the Holy Spirit has made them the overseers. Why have qualifications for pastors and other leaders in the church if the Holy Spirit is sufficient. If one only needs the Holy Spirit then why have teachers. Does not God use them to help people understand scripture?
Tom Butler
New Member
No. Joshua gave an exhortation. There was no invitation to come forward, pay, take Joshua's hand, anything that resembles the modern altar call..
Tom Butler
New Member
I want to re-iterate my position on invitations. I am not opposed to their use, I am opposed to their abuse.
My biggest concern with them is that at times that is ONLY hope/reason the person can give, "came forward X years ago one time at church service at theinvitation!"
preacher4truth
Active Member
I guess it's all in what we term and define as an invitation as well.
I want to say this as to play advocate for those who give an invitation, as when we judge and condemn the preacher "because he's not trusting the Holy Spirit" to do His job. Looking at Acts, I'd say it appeared Peter got quite emotional in his pleading for those to repent and believe. There are other incidents within Acts that could be seen in the same light.
I'm not going to sit here and judge someone and conclude "they aren't trusting in the Holy Spirit." That's not my job nor my place, I don't know their heart.
Can zeal get in the way, and can they come across as manipulative? Of course they can. However, I've been to services where I've witnessed a lingering invitation, and have subsequently watched some come forward to profess faith, and these are still in Church today.
I want to say this as to play advocate for those who give an invitation, as when we judge and condemn the preacher "because he's not trusting the Holy Spirit" to do His job. Looking at Acts, I'd say it appeared Peter got quite emotional in his pleading for those to repent and believe. There are other incidents within Acts that could be seen in the same light.
I'm not going to sit here and judge someone and conclude "they aren't trusting in the Holy Spirit." That's not my job nor my place, I don't know their heart.
Can zeal get in the way, and can they come across as manipulative? Of course they can. However, I've been to services where I've witnessed a lingering invitation, and have subsequently watched some come forward to profess faith, and these are still in Church today.
Right - and they never lived for Christ, there was never a heart change, there was never fruit or evidence of indwelling of the Spirit - but they raised their hand and walked forward, so they were "saved".
preacher4truth
Active Member
I hear what you're saying bro, and there should be no trust in "I came forward."
However, referring to the time of salvation is Biblical;
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," Eph. 1:13.
This knowledge of salvation happened on a specific and different day for each believer.
I would encourage those who came forward with this passage that it is not the "coming forward" but that they believed the truth of the Gospel.
Note also Colossians 1:6;
which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth;
Showing these passages and instructing them with truth is edifying these believers, or, building them up upon truth. The lacking of this in churches has perhaps helped foster the notion it is about "coming forward." To be honest, those who talk of "coming forward" much of the time are just using a bad phraseology but know they are true believers &c.
- Peace
I think a lot of its abuse is encouraged by pastors whose denominations publish statistics which allow churches to be compared. If a church has good statistics then it makes the pastor look good in the eyes of the leaders of the denomination. If a pastor is climbing a ladder then he wants that.
I wonder what we would see if we published the number of reproducers who were making disciples.
Eggggg zactly.
I heard Adrian Rogers say once that if he could talk you into the kingdom, someone else could talk you out.
God does the saving, but invitations done correctly are a good thing.
glfredrick
New Member
Like Spurgeon, huh?
Why does it ALWAYS have to degenerate into this sort of nonesense?
I'm one who is identified with Calvinism. I do an altar call. Only thing is I phrase it differently, "If Christ is drawing you to Himself, come and pray, come and talk, come and let us show you in the Word about God's calling on your life."
I am also very fond of celebrating the Lord's Table at every service and using that as the altar call. "As the church takes the bread -- the body -- and the cup -- the blood -- of the Lord Jesus Christ, YOU take Christ if He is calling you today, so that you can celebrate His sacrifice with us next Sunday."
I ABHOR long, drawn-out altar calls where the preacher has everyone bow their heads, close their eyes, then starts in with some story about little Timmy, who just lost his mama to cancer. Then, "just slip up a hand..." "Thank you brother..." "I saw that sister..." "Now, with no one looking, I want those people who just lifted their hands to come forward to me and take my hand..." "Church, LOOK AT THESE WHO HAVE COME FORWARD!" Ten verses of "Just as I Am" later, the preacher starts in for round 2...
Makes the preacher out to be a liar every service, also fails to allow God's people to interact with each other as the Scriptures call -- we are to edify, pray for, lift up, interact, counsel -- love -- each other as ministers of reconciliation to the gospel. All this sort of altar call does is set up the pastor as the primary priest over his people while he tells sad stories and guilts them into making a response.
preacher4truth
Active Member
:thumbsup: :applause:
preacher4truth
Active Member
The kind of nonsense up above about "what someone always thought about calvinists" isn't really worth much of our time. To go down to them in their little world of pejorative insults isn't a profitable engagement.
well, since he sees us teaching heresy, I can allow him some slack!
Im sorry ...you dont feel that Doctrines of Grace DONT make a difference in Salvation?!? Really!!!
I was saved in a Honda alone on my way to University. :laugh:
Im sorry ...you dont feel that Doctrines of Grace DONT make a difference in Salvation?!? Really!!!
That's not what he meant. He meant it's not the "doctrine" that saves. It's Jesus that saves.
You may think you've got it all figured out and tied up in a neat little box, but you don't. Even the greatest theologians disagreed on certain things and still remained unified in the faith. God saves Primitive Baptists but He also saves Free Will Baptists, Missionary Baptists, Southern Baptists.....He even saves some who aren't Baptists at all.
Thats your 1st mistake!
I was being "good Christian" and granting him forgivesness for the errors of his ways, reacting out of grace and love!
That's not what he meant. He meant it's not the "doctrine" that saves. It's Jesus that saves.
You may think you've got it all figured out and tied up in a neat little box, but you don't. Even the greatest theologians disagreed on certain things and still remained unified in the faith. God saves Primitive Baptists but He also saves Free Will Baptists, Missionary Baptists, Southern Baptists.....He even saves some who aren't Baptists at all.
yes!
ALL of us who get saved are saved by the Grace of God, and just see it as ironic that God saves us all based upon the sotierology of the DoG, even if we refuse to accept that truth!