I work second shift and have to eat lunch and get ready for work. I will get back with you about Streeter's book and about some more inaccurate claims in your post about the NKJV.
Textual Criticism
Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by KJVBibleThumper, Jan 12, 2009.
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First translating any text, requires not only words, but how you use those words. Changing a single word in any sentence, can severely affect the thought that sentence projects.
KJVBibleThumper is correct, in stating all MV’s came from the Codex Sinaiticus, and Vaticanus. In a round about way, when not directly. The Westcott and Hort, and Nestle-Aland Greek new testaments were both used in all the MV’s, including the NKJV.
These were translated using those Sinaiticus, and Vaticanus codices.
If you know anything of these men, you know they were not men of reputation, at least not an honorable one. So how could we expect such men, to produce a text any more honorable than themselves. Especially when using text of questionable! accuracy.
Most of the defense of the modern versions, come from Talking Heads, repeating what they have been told. It doesn’t take very long to compare the translations of the KJV and the MV’s, for yourself, and come to the conclusion something is amiss. If you do it non-objectively.
I used to support all versions of the Bible, until I came to the conclusion (“by myself”) that I no longer could. Now you can argue until the Lord comes, and you will not change my opinion, there is no use. I don’t even want to be involved in this thread, but I could not stand by and not come to the defense of an obvious underdog. Not that he is, but you have made him to seem that way. -
6. The NKJV demotes the Lord Jesus Christ. In John 1:3, the KJV says that all things were made "by" Jesus Christ, but in the NKJV, all things were just made "through" Him. The word "Servant" replaces "Son" in Acts 3:13 and 3:26. "Servant" replaces "child" in Acts 4:27 and 4:30. The word "Jesus" is omitted from Mark 2:15, Hebrews 4:8, and Acts 7:45.
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Maybe let's see these verses side by side in context. I'll start:
John 1:3
KJV "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
Oh wait - what did you say? The KJV says that things were made by Jesus Christ? That was through Bible Gateway. Let me check my old Oxford from my Grandfather-in-law. Hmmm - Says the same thing.
Acts 3:13, 3:26
KJV 3:13 "The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go."
NKJV "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go."
3:26
KJV "Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities."
NKJV "To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”"
OK - "Son" is changed to Servant. Let's see what the Greek says....OK - it can mean either one. Interestingly enough, the KJV translators mostly translated this word as servant 10 times, child 7, son (Christ) 2, son 1, manservant 1, maid 1, maiden 1, young man 1. The ONLY two times it is translated as "Son" are these two verses. Check out some of the other uses of the word and see if it is wrongly interpreted (Matthew 2:16, 8:6, 8:8, 8:13...)
As for the "Jesus" being removed, it replaces it with the logical "he" as is done in the modern language. "And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him." In this verse, you would not speak that way and as such, the NKJV writers changed it to reflect such. To say "as he sat ..., Jesus" does not take Jesus out of the Scriptures at all. That's a joke argument, IMO.
[quoe] 7. The NKJV confuses people about salvation. In Hebrews 10:14 it replaces "are sanctified" with "are being sanctified", and it replaces "are saved" with "are being saved" in I Corinthians 1:18 and II Corinthians 2:15. The words "may believe" have been replaced with "may continue to believe" in I John 5:13. The old straight and "narrow" way of Matthew 7:14 has become the "difficult" way in the NKJV.
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Well, if you understood Greek, you'd see that the NKJV is actually making the meaning MORE clear rather than less clear. An active verb needs to be translated as such. The NKJV translators did the correct thing.
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There is no difference between the two readings in meaning.
KJV: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
NKJV: Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Mark 16:15
KJV: And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
NKJV: And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
OK - so WHERE is the cross reference here? We become a new creation - not a new creature. We are not martians or horses or something but an entirely new creation. As for the Mark 16 passage, I see no difference and have NO clue why you brought this in except in ignorance. -
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Since he brought up a discussion based on what he has learned, there is nothing wrong with presenting him with another side.
I wish men had challenged my thinking more when I was a young fella. I believed far too much that I heard in Bible college without questioning, and I only read sources that agreed. Big mistake. -
On this very issue in fact, among others. -
annsi, nice job in your thorough two-part response.
According to the TR itself, Mark 2:15 would accurately read "... as he sat at meat...". The KJV translators slipped in an extra "Jesus". This is not a mistranslation; it is a willful substitution (not italicized either). This is not a printer's error. The KJV-Onlyists gladly say when the MVs are in error by 'removing' a word but they will never admit that the KJV is in error for 'adding' a word.
I've covered this verse before on the BB --http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=37442&page=13 -
Gracious! It's so hard to be hit with your own argument, huh?
Thanks for the info! :)
Once I went searching on Biblegateway for the term "Jesus Christ", I think it was. The KJV had the least number of it occuring compared to the NIV (who had the highest number). And they say the modern versions remove Jesus' name. LOL -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
With regard to textual Criticism I agree with J.L. Dagg
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This is not substituting a word, only clarifying one. As “he” Jesus is definately the “he” being mentioned here. And does no harm whatsoever to the meaning, or thought of the verse.
M'r:2:15: And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him. -
No smilie -
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If you want to have a problem with a verse. Don’t worry about 2:15, but take a look at this one, this I do take exception to.
M'r:2:17: When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. KJV
M’r:2:17: And hearing this, Jesus said to them, It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners. NASB
The problem with the NASB here, is what did Jesus call sinners for, dinner, play ball, get drunk, or to Repent. If it were not for the KJV, I could say anyone of these things, and you would be none the wiser.
Of course that would be sort of foolish to say such a thing, but someone could, and would have an opportunity since the NASB does not state a clear point here. -
By the way,I have never seen "M'r" before as an abbreviation for Mark.
NASBU :And Jesus answered and said to them,"It is not those who are well who need a physician,but those who are sick.I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance." (Luke 5:31,32) -
This is a typical variant that occurs in the gospels and the KJVO argument would be much stronger if the "removal of repentance" was consistent through ALL occurrences of this passage. However, we can see that it IS in Luke so those who wanted to take out the idea of repentance did an extremely poor job. Not to mention the consistency of Scripture speaking of repentance.
This is quite a weak argument. -
No argument intended, I was just pointing out before I would get upset about Mark2:15, I would much quicker take exception to this verse. Mark 2:17 that is.
M'r: Just happens to be the way the Bible program on my computer, abbreviates Mark. -
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