The rapture

As we know, there are many views on many passages. Many of the interpretations from some people directly contradict the interpretations held by others. Yet, each sincere Christian, by definition, believes he/she is following the guidance of the Holy Spirit. How can we be sure? The obvious answer is by prayer and serious Bible study. Yet, we still have different views regarding major issues like the end times, the nature of salvation, etc. Unless it's a "Kingdom" issue (pertaining to obvious issues relating to salvation or serious moral questions), I tend not to be too concerned with issues that we have no control over.

 

Now that you mention it, Brother Glen, the Rapture is primarily an American doctrine. Even at that, it's more commonly believed in the "Bible Belt" than anywhere else. I couldn't agree more that we ought to search the Scriptures out for ourselves instead of letting others do our thinking for us.

 

Well we may have Americanize it to suit our time but basically if you search it out its origin is Jesuit Catholic... Like I said NEVER heard it in the Baptist Church I grew up in and our brethren in the Bible Belt NEVER taught it... Oh I know it flies off the bookshelves and there is one interpretation after another but as far as I'm concern you can file it in your bookshelf under fantasy... Brother Glen:)

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Sadly, too many people blindly trust the "prophecy pundits". I'd read about the Jesuit Catholic origins of the rapture, and I believe you are correct. Oddly enough, many of those who believe this interpretative fantasy would tell you that they follow the Berean's example of searching out the Scriptures to find out if the teachings are accurate. The thing is, their search tends to "prove itself", because no other interpretation is applied to their "proof texts".

 

You claim what it cannot be. What does the Bible say about it?

I read the Bible and it says what all this conspiracy thought teaches. What does all this conspiracy from dead people have to do with the Bible at all? Absolutely nothing. So what I accept the Bible is saying, it is definitely not coming from dead people, no matter how many times these conspiracies are paraded out of the barn. In fact it is just confusion bringing up dead people's thoughts.

 

For starters there are no physical dead people in Christ period. Paul clears that up in 2 Thessalonians 5. The soul leaves this temporal tent and immediately passes into a permanent incorruptible body. The soul does not wait any where.


Yes, up until the point on the Cross where Jesus declared, "It is finished", the soul was in a temporary state. This was Abraham's bosom. That is the direct words of Christ. Luke 16:22

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

This was a literal place not some phenomenon. There was not a permanent body until the Cross. Matthew 27:51-53 gives us the first resurrection at that moment on the Cross when a permanent body was available. I would contend that Lazarus, as the brother of Martha and Mary was indeed resurrected from this place and given an incorruptible body prior to the Cross to prove to them the Cross was the Last Day, a soul would spend in Abraham's bosom. At the Cross, the angel with the flaming sword was taken from the entrance of Paradise, and now Adam's descendants could enter freely. Paul confirms this in Ephesians 4:8. All those in Abraham's bosom were given permanent incorruptible bodies and ascended with Christ into Paradise the temple of God, the future New Jerusalem.

This transfer takes place now immediately when a souls leaves Adam's flesh and blood into the permanent incorruptible body not made by human hands. There is no resurrection of Adam's corruptible sinful flesh. Flesh and blood cannot enter Paradise. Only God's permanent incorruptible body can exist there. Paul is declaring in these verses attributed to living people that many will die and be changed, but at the Second Coming the living themselves will be changed from a corruptible to an incorruptible body. At that moment, all of the church will then be glorified. At the Cross all were given an incorruptible body. At the Second Coming all will then be glorified.


As for Armageddon it is just the battle name for the place fought at. Revelation 16:14, 16

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

12 The sixth one poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water dried up, in order to prepare the way for the kings from the east.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits that looked like frogs; they came from the mouth of the dragon, from the mouth of the beast and from the mouth of the false prophet.
14 They are miracle-working demonic spirits which go out to the kings of the whole inhabited world to assemble them for the War of the Great Day of Adonai-Tzva’ot.
16 And they gathered the kings to the place which in Hebrew is called Har Megiddo.

The valley of Megiddo has probably seen many battles.

To say it all happened in the 1st century begs a lot of things including why is the church still going strong, and why is there not an earthly Kingdom now. These OT prophecies have never been fulfilled. And Christ appearing with an army in The first century was never witnessed much less a fact of history.

The Second Coming is another multi year earthly ministry which leads up to a millennium reign. This is part of the final 7 years of Jacob's trouble when the Messiah, God Himself deals directly with the house of Jacob. Paul says his people rejected their Messiah for the saving of the whole world. That was their trouble the first half of the 3.5 years of the 70th week, when Jesus had the first earthly ministry. There is still another earthly ministry that will finish out the last half of this 70th week. It cannot happen during the time of the church. THE CHURCH HAS TO BE TAKEN OUT. Then The Messiah will deal with Jacob during another time of trouble. The church in the world never stopped in the first century. It has been going for 1990 years strong.

Preterest would have to totally deny any existence of a church. What we have been would not be a church at all. Since that is nonsense, so is the point every thing was complete during the 1st century.

 

I'm sure you actually meant to say 1 Thessalonians 5, since 2 Thessalonians only has 3 chapters. (Don't you hate it when you make those typos?)

If I understand your meaning, the majority of your response is about our resurrected body. So far, no disagreement. However, the topic of this thread is "the rapture", and we are now discussing the resurrected body. Different topic.

That does seem to be the common view. I'm content to agree to disagree on that one.

No, Preterists do not deny the existence of the Church. I suspect you are not very familiar with this eschatological view. While many Christians claim there is a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel, I don't believe Scripture supports this view. For that matter, there is no real Scriptural support for the "7 Years Tribulation". There are several references to 3 1/2 year periods, but I believe they all point to the 3 1/2 years of the Jewish Wars (AD 67-70). I suspect that we are simply not going to agree because we have different views altogether. Fortunately for both of us, our view of the "end times" doesn't affect our salvation. I truly wish more Christians shared your passion, as you have clearly spent a lot of time and prayer in God's Word. Even though we disagree on our "end times" views, I admire your passion for truth.

 

The rapture[catching up] happens on the last day.

jn6
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,
but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:
and I will raise him up at the last day.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

thank you thank you thank you. BTW, my fantasy file is my trash can.

 

The rapture will occur before the great trib begins, either just before the antichrist comes to power, or shortly after. (The Jews may or may not have built a new temple in Jerusalem by then.) Here's why I believe that:

The marka the beast will almost certainly be some sorta microchip or some similar future tech. The tech for such a MC already exists. However, when some companies have tried to implement it for its employees to use to unlock office doors, etc. it's met with almost-universal refusal. But, with the Christians raptured, there won't be enough new saints to raise an alarm when the beast hypes the chip as a convenient replacement for cash & plastic, as it can't be lost or stolen, or used by anyone else. Thus, there'll be little resistance when it's made mandatory, enforced by the beast's own police & military.

He will have an explanation for the disappearance of millions that the world will believe, & will cheer & support him even more, now that the pests who were against progress are gone. Remember that God shall send STRONG DELUSION on those who worship & follow the antichrist so that they won't believe the Gospel if they happen to hear it.

There'll be a few who will realize the rapture has occurred & the Bible is true, & will come to Jesus in belief, prayer, & repentance. they'll have a rough existence, as they can't buy or sell except in black markets, with the beast's police seeking them 24/7. Many will be killed, as Scripture indicates.

When Jesus returns, He will bring those "trib saints" with Him, & call those still living to Him.

But no, the rapture won't be His return; He will call the saints up to Him, not come down to them.

 

2 Corinthians 5

We know that when the tent which houses us here on earth is torn down, we have a permanent building from God, a building not made by human hands, to house us in heaven.
2 For in this tent, our earthly body, we groan with desire to have around us the home from heaven that will be ours.
3 With this around us we will not be found naked.
4 Yes, while we are in this body, we groan with the sense of being oppressed: it is not so much that we want to take something off, but rather to put something on over it; so that what must die may be swallowed up by the Life.
5 Moreover, it is God who has prepared us for this very thing, and as a pledge he has given us his Spirit.

For those living at the Second Coming it is the same change.

The rapture happens at the Second Coming prior to the sounding of the Trumpets.

 

So you meant to refer to 2 Corinthians, not 2 Thessalonians. Easy mistake. No argument that this passage refers to the resurrected body. Even when I was a Dispensationalist (many years ago), I never connected this passage to the Rapture. I believe the "rapture doctrine" comes from a misunderstanding of several passages. However, I also recognize this view doesn't affect our Christian nor any major doctrine. We could discuss our views of the rapture "proof texts" if you like, but neither of us is likely to change the mind of the other. I stopped believing in the rapture many years ago when I moved to the preterist view of eschatology.

 

My only opinion on the Rapture is: I am in favor of it and the sooner the better as far as I am concerned. (I wanna go home!)

 

My point is there is no general resurrection and the Second Coming is the rapture, and it happens at the start, because the Lamb and God on the throne will be present for the final harvest. The church is the first harvest and leaves at the start of the harvest.

That is the order John gives in Revelation. The Seals is the harvest of the church. The Trumpets are the harvest of the house of Jacob. The Thunders is the harvest of the Nations. Then Satan harvests the rest for 42 months. Any one left alive will die in the battle of Armageddon. This is the one hour of the 10 kings.

These judgments do not happen at the same time or one single event. They are a series of events leading up to the Sabbath Day with the Lord. The 1000 year millennium without sin, but the iron rule of a physically present Lord of the vineyard.

I do not need any proof text, when John has given the road map of things to come. The first year of the alleged "7" has already happened. The Seals started being opened in Oct. of 2019. The first 3.5 years keep getting shorter, by the second. The time of the harvest when the Lord is present gets shorter, as Jesus promised these days would be limited (of the Trumpets tribulation) for the sake of the church, giving the church time to repent, but that time will not last longer than 2+ years. And no one can know the day or hour of the Second Coming.

 

Again, thank you for the clarification. You have an interesting view regarding the rapture/resurrection that I have never come across. The general resurrection is the topic of Matthew 25:31-46 (judgement of sheep and goats). The judgements of the 7 Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls were fulfilled in the Jewish Wars (AD 67-70). The 10 "kings" are Roman emperors beginning with Julius Caesar and ending with Vespasian. Nero is the 6th "king".

Without "proof texts" to back up your views, all we have are opinions. You say that John has given the road map, but you don't provide any specifics - just a general overview. It seems the only point we agree upon is that we cannot know the day or hour of the Second Coming.

 

You & TTF are both incorrect. The rapture will come before the great trib, & it may or may not be before the AC comes to power or the Jews build a new temple in Jerusalem. And no, it won't be the physical return of Jesus. He will call the living saints & those in paradise to Him; He won't come to them.

The seals & trumps will be fulfilled during the AC's reign, as parts of the great trib, while the bowls will be the climax of that trib.
The 10 kings(or other rulers, such as "Premiers", etc.) will be a confederation of nations that'll give their power to the AC, but 3 of them won't be willing, & he will overthrow them.

The Roman rulers are part of the 6th king of the 7 kings of Rev. 17:10. They're separate from the 10 kings of Daniel.

A close reading of Daniel, Revelation, & the words of Jesus in Matt. 24 & Luke 21, as well as 2 Thess.2, & fitting them into one another will give you the actual truth about the coming events, including the rapture. Remember, the TRUE Church is to be kept from the "hour of trial(the trib) which shall come upon the whole world".

 

I must respectfully disagree with you, Brother. Closely reading the Scriptures is why I no longer believe in the Rapture. It is precisely from a close reading of Daniel, the words of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, Revelation, etc. that have led me to the views I hold regarding the "end times". The "whole world" that experienced the tribulation (Matt 24:21) happened in AD 67-70. Jesus is using hyperbole, similar to the language of Ezekiel 5:8-9.

Let's look at another phrase in Matthew 24:21 - "...great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will again " "Nor ever will again" clearly shows this is not referring to the literal end of the world. Backing up a bit further, verse 15-20 speak of things that would only make sense in the context of 1st century Israel - e.g. the command that "those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains" wouldn't help if it were worldwide tribulation. They would not be able to escape. History shows that Christians fled to Pella during the siege of Jerusalem. "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down" fits ancient Israel, but doesn't fit today's cultures. "Pray that your flight will not be...on a Sabbath" only makes sense if it applies to that culture.

I know you are very passionate with your views of the "end times", and I remember you are especially opposed to the Preterist views that many of us hold. No problem. I'm not here to change your views - as if I could. I totally get your views, and I know you are a smart man, but I completely disagree with you on this topic.

 

With all due respect...

Sorry, Captain, but there'll clearly be a rapture. That word ,besides meaning great joy, has also become a shortcut for the "catching away & translation" Jesus is gonna do with the saints. Remember, He said He's gonna keep'em from the hour of trial, and what better way than to remove'em from the world? Both Jesus & Paul said it'll happen.

As for the events of 66-70 AD, they were NOT worldwide, as the trib will be. They were part of the 'days of vengeance" Jesus declared against that generation of Jews.

And there have been far-worse catastrophes hit than those events. The nazi holocaust was far-worse against the Jews than the Roman attack.

Prets simply make assertions without trying to ascertain the CORRECT meanings of many Scriptures, nor study history. Preterism, like KJVO is yet another man-made false doctrine.

 

If the saints are to be kept from the hour of trial, why tell them to flee to the mountains?

"World", as used in this context, refers to the Roman Empire.

If you would correctly interpret the Scriptures, or at least set your "anti-Preterist" prejudice aside, you might be able to see what should be obvious.

While there are plenty of man-made doctrines out there, the Partial Preterist view is accepted as an orthodox eschatological position by most Christian denominations.

 

Why not just be A Mil?