None of your photos dipict what I would consider "flagging".
In the first example (gc2kb09) are a procession of banners. Banners declare a message and yours appear to represent the tribes of Israel (unless I misinterpret them). A banner is held in the upright position and is not "waved" back and forth or around. They remain rigidly fixed for the most part.
In the second example (gc2kb06), the ladies are wearing streamers that accentuate their arm or hand movements and might best be called streamers and not flags.
And in the final example (gc2kb13), these ladies are expressing a liturgical interpretive dance ensemble that is choreographed to the music.
I have seen the middle and the latter ones performed and I have tried to be open minded about how a person may express their worship before the Lord. But I could never envision myself performing this way. These expressions too seem to go on forever and don't really do much except create a visual effect for the observer.
The flagging however as I understand it to be is performed with square and rectangular or triangular cloths on a staff and is flung about like a baton and waved low and high. This can be done on a stage or the altar and even in the aisles.
I got the impression from the way it was described by Matt Black that the flaggers were either in the aisle or up in front of the congregation where Matt stood or sat on the front row.
If this interferes with a person's worshipful attention, perhaps Matt should remove himself to part of the congregation where this acitivy is minimized.
I have been in a service where one female felt the need to dance about in her place where she stood and it became distracting in that her movements took the focus off the Lord and placed the focus on her. Flagging also would seem to have that effect too.
To the blasted flag-wavers at my church...
Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Matt Black, May 26, 2005.
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I understand your criticism, BillyMac. I was simply trying to provide a flavor of the movement to those who haven't seen it in person.
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Nothing wrong with clapping your hands as praise unto the Lord...
"O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph."
Psalm 47:1 -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
To clarify, what I mean by flag-waving is this: two or three women from our church get up, take a brightly-coloured flag, streamer or banner (not a national flag btw) and wave it around in an 'interpretative manner'. We have two aisles in our church and the wavers, as well as doing this at the front, march up and down the aisles and round at the back doing it. Given that I am holding a five-month old baby who might need to be taken out at any moment, I have little choice but to sit on the end of the row of seats next to an aisle; hence both he and I are exposed to these whirling dervishes.
Yours in Christ
Matt -
I can keep my affections set on things above without turning my back on the country I love.
Yes, I am a citizen of another country, one whose builder and maker is God, but until then, my heart will go on singing. Even when I am raptured out, I won't have the time to even think about my back being turned in any direction, it'll happen too fast.
Matt, if you're disatisfied with the worship in your church, weither go to the pastor, or leave, maybe starting a "non-flag" waving assembly :rolleyes:
I endure sitting through an ensemble song and have to see the others not singing paint their smiles on their faces. It's proper entertainment etiqutte, I understand. :rolleyes: -
Matt Black
Several years ago at the church where I belonged at that time they brought in a bunch of banners. They didn't wave them around, just marched down the aisle and stood at the front of the congregation. I talked to the pastor [fortunately we had a pastor one could talk to] asked him the Biblical basis for such practice and indicated it reminded me of scenes from pagam movies. The flags were not used again. -
I hate to rain on a parade, so to speak, but when Jesus comes back, there will be a WHOLE lot more than flag waving going on! God seems to enjoy Banner Waving, Incense Burning, Making Joyful Noises, Blowing Horns, etc. according to the OT. He's even been known to have some pretty dramatic choreography, such as seas parting and suddenly closing, etc.
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Yet another example of unbiblical practices invading a church.
What's sad with this is that most people probably object, but will not make it known in order to appease a few. That is dangerous. We should never give in for the sake of peace when our church is falling into disorder.
Good for Matt that he will stand and voice his objections. He will probably find more people will back him up once he does. -
Hey Matt!!! I'm sorry, too---Brother!!! I don't like the whole creative worship concept myself either----just not my idea of "worship friendly"-----but hey----look on the bright side---at least they were wavein' colored scarves and weren't swinging baseball bats!!!!
So---everyone please accept my apology!!!
Blackbird -
Blackbird, I thought it was the Flag of the UK he was complaining about. What do I know? :confused:
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On the other hand when you worship God in spirit and in truth (openly) all manner of enthralling gladdened worship may take you to another level. All you straight-laced Christians who can't get excited over a worshipful experience might want to consider that when our Lord returns you'll likely see a lot more than flag-waving going on and THEN what will your thoughts be??? Jesus will know........
(LadyEagle made a good point a few posts back) -
Not wanting to wave banners or move around does not mean I'm "straight-laced." I think by that word you are meaning "uptight" or something similar. All the jumping around in the world does not necessarily mean a worshipful spirit. -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Just for the record, I don't mind people doing a bit of 'interpretative dance' once in a while; I don't even mind them using flags occasionally. Specifically, it is the following to which I object:-
1. Waving a flag in front of my face. I tend to sit on the end of a row by the aisle so that I can leave hurriedly for the creche with the Blacket should he get twitchy. The flag wavers however seem bent on marching up and down said aisle whilst using their instruments of torture a la Whirling Dervishes. This is (a) dangerous and (b) highly intrusive
2. Doing it every blasted week like it's a permanent fixture.
So, it is not dancing per se to which I object, nor is it even the flags. It is the dangerous and intrusive use of the flags and the use of them every week to which I am objecting.
Let me make a comparison: I don't mind people raising their hands in worship either. In fact, I do it myself on occasions. But I would object if they stuck their hands up in front of me two inches from my nose or waved them about in front of my face. Wouldn't you?
I wouldn't mind so much if they did it at the back
The point is that these folks always want to do it at the front of church to ensure everyone can witness the wonderfully smooth way they can wave a coloured stick. What's that all about?
Ok, you want to do that, it helps you worship, fine. It distracts me hugely, and others, so take it to the back of the church.
That people who do this often lose interest when asked to do it at the back tell me a lot about their motivations.
Oh and it's unbiblical - Rom 12:11 - "Do not flag in zeal"; God will surely smite them :D
Yours in Christ
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Banners with Christian symbols are beautiful, symbolic, and nicely decorate the sanctuary. The proper use of them does not violate Scripture. The only violation would be worshipping them as a graven image. If one opposes Banners with Christian symbols in our worship centers, then it would be consistent to oppose symbols of the Cross as well. Of course, some churches choose to avoid all symbols including the Cross and that's okay. -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Our church has always had banners and flags with Scriptural verses etc on its walls and at the front. As I keep saying, that ain't the problem; the problem is the moronic thrusting of said implements in my face by no doubt well-intentioned but extremely irritating grinning idiots to which I take grave exception.
Comprendez?
I reckon shoot the flag wavers, the dancers and anyone else who thinks that they need to do interpretative crud in church. Sit down, shut the heck up and listen if it's not too hard. Watching some prat dance in a tragically floaty manner does not bring people closer to God it brings them closer to Uzis. It's just not polite.
Yours in Christ
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Matt,
I understand. My response was directed to OldRegular, who was proud to announce that he put a stop to the use of Banners in his church after making some reference to "pagans".
--Jeff -
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His banner over me is love!
Hmmm? I wonder if that's scriptural?
Keep waving that banner please Jesus? -
"Can't we Just get along?"
--Rodney King
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