Excellent points, and same here, when I am not practicing holiness, or perfecting holiness before God.
As a side note, on the "two natures" John MacArthur Jr. actually denies we have two natures. I find that interesting.
I take it you agree with practicing holiness, and that you don't see it conflicting with salvation, nor turning it into a works based effort.
There seems to be a great shift away from practicing/preaching this within the church. Some of the notes on here show almost a mockery of it, and a deep misunderstanding of it also. I do see this especially when some are relating the personal practice of holiness to the past, almost ages in essence, and others being incapable of distinguishing and separating this from the salvation experience.
One of my friends was saved several months ago in Cali. I asked him what he thought about personal holiness, and he was unaware of what it means.
- Blessings
What is holiness, and where is it today?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by preacher4truth, Dec 8, 2010.
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I practice personal holiness and am walking with God.
8 vote(s)57.1% -
Personal holiness is a farce, I don't worry about my walk.
0 vote(s)0.0% -
I need to get some things right with God in my walk regarding this.
3 vote(s)21.4% -
Holiness does not need to be preached. Live however you wish.
0 vote(s)0.0% -
I used to walk close to God in holiness before Him, and have slipped.
1 vote(s)7.1% -
Holiness is important and the church needs to hear this preached.
9 vote(s)64.3% -
I know I am better used of God when I walk before Him in cautious holiness.
9 vote(s)64.3% -
Bible knowledge has voided this doctrine and it is not relevant to believers.
0 vote(s)0.0% -
I am free and can and do live however I want and I don't believe in seperation or holiness.
0 vote(s)0.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Sin nature is strong but praise be to God the spirit is stronger. -
Here is another one, NKJV Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? Salvation is such a precious gift we cannot neglect it, we cannot dwell on our past sins (what the devil wants us to do), but we should be humble before God and own up to our transgressions. If we are truly born again, we cannot lose our salvation, we are preserved in the work of Christ. Our liberty in Christ came at a great price though, and we cannot take it lightly, liberty is not a license to sin.
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Desire to be holy? Yes of course. And yes we have to be open to the leading of the Holy Spirit.
I just don't believe a man can ever be holy while still in his flesh.
I've met men whom I admire because they seem more holy than myself only to be disappointed, after discovering the truth that they really aren't anymore holy than anyone else.
The only perfect man who ever lived was our Lord. Shouldn't we realize that true holiness, is for us, (in this flesh) impossible. This is not to say give up. It's just admittance of the truth.
MB -
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/1natjm01.htm
I agree 100% with everything you have said. People try to follow the reformers, but seemingly only follow them in intellectual knowledge of spiritual things, but far far away from the holiness they practiced in addition to their high intellectual understanding of spiritual things.
Both sides; the practice of holiness, and the knowledge part, came as gifts of the grace of God to do so.
I wonder why it is now, that this thing is so one-sided, and mainly and almost soley stuck upon the intellectual part, leaving the practicing holiness part aside? And why is my post so difficult to understand?
Interesting.
We don't need more geniuses, we need more persons who are like Him. -
Note that I did not say I do not separate with some things... Just that separation is not THE most important thing, nor is separation THE biblical definition of holiness.
I find an overemphasis on the act of separation a work that people practice in order to be pleasing to God.
Oh, and for the record, a few of you need to get your panties out of your cracks about the higher education thing. You are missing your own definition of holiness by not separating yourselves from being "accusers of the brethren..." -
Is being holy, practicing holiness, pleasing to God? 1 Peter 1:15-16 is an imperative, and we know when we keep His commandments, He is pleased at our obedience; "And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight." - 1 John 3:22 .
BTW, I have never seen an overemphasis of holy living, unless it is coupled with a works based salvation. -
We could not please God before Salvation, and truthfully we don't do much better afterwards either. I would like to meet a trully holy man. I'm not saying it's impossible to do. I just have never met anyone who accomplished true holiness with out pride creeping in.
As I see it everytime man thinks he has accomplished something important. Pride stands up behind him and stabs him in the back with reality. We can only seperate our selves from the flesh for short periods yet eventually the flesh always get a word in edge wise.
MB -
"1Th 4:7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness."
"Eph 4:24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness."
"1Pe 1:15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,"
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i seek to live in BIBLICAL holiness. Not in the legalistic pharisaically-fraught man-made "pseudo-holiness" as indicated from the op.
No thank you to following man's way (that leads to death). I will stick with walking in obedience/faithfulness to the Word alone. -
Who said we are to claim it? We are talking of practicing holiness. Please follow along and stay with us here.
If practicing personal holiness were so impossible, God would have never commanded us to be holy as He is holy.
- Blessings -
I agree and hope you understand those are not my rules, having come out of KJVO legalistic churches.
:tonofbricks:
Also, could you share as to what you deem Biblical holiness to which you seek to live in. I am new to reformed theology and thinking, and this would be helpful. -
MB -
I don't think you are looking at the big picture nor are you using Scripture to validate your points. I am trying to use Scriptural support in this, and am.
Can you answer my questions and/or my post, reasonably, as the other have so graciously done? That is what this forum is for.
- Thanks -
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Since it is Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith it isn't by man's efforts we aquire any holiness.
If we are bold enough to say we do it our selves or by our selves then we are taking glory for God's own work. because it is He who finishes our faith and our faith comes from His precious Word. Faith is why we seek holiness but it is always God's leading.
Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
Holiness as described by Webster's dictionary is a perfection. There is no man with out sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
MB -
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Holiness in salvation is positional holiness. Practicing holiness is progressive, not tied to working for salvation, but because of salvation. I believe this is where you are not getting what the OP was for.
But this is in no way, shape, or form what Biblical holiness is. Websters does not define holiness in the Biblical sense. What does hagios mean, in Scripture and what does it imply? That's where the problem lies, in the definition. Holy is not "perfect". Therefore, man can in fact, be holy, by following God, in the way the Bible interprets what holy actually is.
I hear you. I am not leaning on self. I know you are not either, though however, this does not excuse us from practicing holiness, Hebrews 12:14. I am leaning on Him and His Word in that I may keep His commandments, to please Him. I fail, but I get up and keep on keeping on.
- Thanks for the dialogue. I enjoyed it and look to do so again.
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None of the above.
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Preacher for truth, I believe that you have been surprised by the direction this thread has taken -- and that not just because it has become somewhat antagonistic (don't they all around here?) -- but rather because so many of us don't find that holiness is really described by a set of actions, no matter how good those actions may be.
In this regard, let me say that "Reformed" holiness is not different from "IFB" holiness, but rather that the IFB tends to (as I have experienced) focus on behaviors rather than position. in a sense, you have been taught that proper behavior will assure proper position, but that is not true at all, as exemplified over and again by Christ against the Pharisees who were "professional keepers of the Law" that sought to enact proper behaviors at every turn, yet were called "whitewashed sepulchers" by Jesus, Himself for their actions.
A desire to be set apart for God's use and to be conformed to the image and likeness of Jesus Christ will probably produce the good works you suggest, but producing the good works you suggest may not cause one to be conformed to the image and likeliness of Christ. I'm hoping that you see the distinction here, as it is a tad nuanced, but nonetheless true. With Christ, it is always relationship first, and it is our relationship with Christ that causes the positional reality that actually brings us personal holiness. In other words, we are holy because we are imputed with Christ's holiness, and then because we have His indwelling presence, we can do things that work in concert with our sanctification process.
To one stepped in the doctrinaire IFB processes, this must all seem so very "watered down" but in truth it is anything but. Rather, it is the remarkable, astounding, magnificent grace of God at work within us! Praise Him! We don't have to work out our salvation by exercises of the will as does every other religion on earth. We are saved by Christ's atonement and then set to work as His ambassadors, bringing reconciliation, love, unity in the faith, and yes, good deeds and works to this sin-dead world.
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