America in Bible Prophecy

So you are saying Jesus is not physically returning?

Daniel 7 uses it to describe the coming of Christ to the "Ancient of Days" in the judgment of heaven when "all must stand before the judgment seat of Christ". A point in time future to Romans 2 - when God WILL judge the secrets of all men through Jesus Christ and when judgment "is passed in favor of the saints"

In Matt 24, 26 and Rev 1 Jesus uses it to refer to the visible 2nd coming of Christ.

Both aspects are correct.

in Christ,

Bob

 

1. Clearly the NT authors never claimed to have seen a first century fufillment of the 2nd coming promises.

2. Clearly the NT authors and readers DID expect a soon return of Christ -- in their lifetime. If such was not the case then the deception Paul warned about in 2Thess 2 could have been put aside by saying "don't believe anyone who says that Christ has come because it is not going to happen in our life time".

3. The 2Thess 2 reference shows that they did not think Christ "had come" the 2nd time. It also shows that many "events" would need to happen BEFORE the appearing of Christ and our "gathering together unto Him" to quote Paul in 2Thess 2.

Thus it is true that first century saints were not anticipating 2000 years of waiting. No generation has.

And the book of Daniel was "sealed' and the 2300 year timeline he described in Dan 8, as well as the 1260 year timeline he described in Daniel 7 were "hidden".

As to whether the 490 year timeline he depicts in Daniel 9 pertaining to the first coming of Christ was also hidden -- that is not clear. Apparently pre-cross saints did figure that one out.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Originally Posted by BobRyan


1. Clearly the NT authors never claimed to have seen a first century fufillment of the 2nd coming promises[/I]

Wishful thinking?

There is no agreement at all among either Bible historians or Bible scholars that John was dead before 70 AD.

The point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

 

9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,[/b]

[/quote]

1. Apostasy of the church resulting in the 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints.
2. Man of lawlessness – son of destruction (an antichrist) – leading the Christian church in that apostasy
3. Antichrist exalting himself – as seated in the temple of God – God on earth
4. The Rev 7 “restraint” will be removed (Future to today)
5. Power signs and false wonders to be seen: “ whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders" -- (future to today - obviously)
6. whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming (Another future event)


2Thess 1 -

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

No such fulfillment has been seen.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Peter says "with GOD a thousand years is as a day AND A day is as a THOUSAND years". So instead of a "time rule" what Peter is giving us is the principle that God "has enough time" in a day to get many things done -- and He has "enough patience to wait a 1000 years" if that is what it takes to get the plan fully accomplished.

Thus -- A short time is not "too short" for God -- and a long time is not "too long" for him.

So -- historicist it is.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The historicist method observes key details in both Daniel and Rev where God shows John what is and what is to come. Rev 1:19. So the model itself is very Biblical.

The signs of Rev 6 that are to follow the great tribulation of the dark ages (1260 years of persecution of the saints) is said to be a great Earthquake, dark day, moon turns to blood, stars fall. ( a similar list is given in Matt 24)

The 1260 years of dark ages persecution had ended before the end of the 18th century. Therefore in the 18th and 19th century we see the signs predicted in Rev 6 and Matt 24 had taken place.



Lisbon EarthQuake – November 1, 1755

Dark Day of May 19, 1780
(Sun is dark, moon turns to blood color)

Stars Fall: November 13th, 1833

=========================================
The secular authorities that attest to these historic events have no interest at all in the "historicist method" yet they all declare that these events were historically remarkable.


Lisbon EarthQuake
Encyclopedia Americana, article `Lisbon', note (ed. 1831).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1755_Lisbon_earthquake
The 1755 Lisbon earthquake, also known as the Great Lisbon Earthquake, took place on 1 November 1755, at around 9:40 in the morning.[1] The earthquake was followed by a tsunami and fires, which caused near-total destruction of Lisbon in the Kingdom of Portugal, and adjoining areas. Geologists today estimate the Lisbon earthquake approached magnitude 9 on the Moment magnitude scale, with an epicenter in the Atlantic Ocean about 200 km (120 mi) west-southwest of Cape St. Vincent. Estimates place the death toll in Lisbon alone between 10,000 and 100,000 people,[2] making it one of the most destructive earthquakes in history.
The earthquake accentuated political tensions in the Kingdom of Portugal and profoundly disrupted the country's eighteenth-century colonial ambitions. The event was widely discussed and dwelt upon by European Enlightenment philosophers, and inspired major developments in theodicy and in the philosophy of the sublime. As the first earthquake studied scientifically for its effects over a large area, it led to the birth of modern seismology and earthquake engineering.


Dark Day –
Noah Webster's Unabridged Dictionary, Vocabulary of the Names of Noted ... Persons and Places, ed. 1869, 1882 & 1883.
"The Dark Day, May 19, 1780 -- so-called on account of a remarkable darkness on that day extending over all New England ... The obscuration began about ten o'clock in the morning, and continued till the middle of the next night, but with difference and duration in different places ... The true cause of this remarkable phenomena is not known."



Stars Fall
One of the greatest meteor storms ever seen took place nearly 166 years ago over the eastern United States. During the 4 hours which preceded dawn on Nov. 13, 1833,
…
The storm marked the discovery of the annual Leonids meteor shower and is widely regarded as the birth of modern meteor astronomy.
http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast22jun99_2.htm


in Christ,

Bob

 

1. nothing like that of the dark ages apostacy - prayers to the dead, persecution of the saints by the 10's of millions.

2. Also Paul informs his readers that they should know that the 2nd coming has NOT come because the "falling away" had to come first -- and clearly his statement argues that it had NOT happened by any means by the time 2Thess 2 was written.

3. Yet as you say - Paul affirms that the saints were persecuted - but also affirms that ALL should know that the great "falling away" of 2Thess 2 was yet future so no expectation of the 2nd coming should be allowed before that yet-future event of apostacy.

At no point does Paul ever argue that the yet-future appearance of the man of lawlessness that he mentions in 2Thess 2- had taken place. Rather he argues that since the 2Thess 2 readers knew it had NOT taken place - they should not be mislead by someone later sending them a letter AS IF to the effect that the 2nd coming had taken place.

Paul references the man of sin -- the man of lawlessness in 2Thess 2. Paul never uses the term antichrist in any of his writings.

IN 2Thess 2 -- Paul declares that this man of lawlessness is yet to be revealed and is a "sign" to the readers that the 2nd coming had not happened.

"No man knoweth the day nor the hour" -- Paul spent the entire chapter of 2Thess 2 telling his readers that many things YET FUTURE needed to happen BEFORE the 2nd coming.

He never gave a time estimate not in months or years or decades or centuries.

He gave them no false hope. He gave EVERY Bible reader in ALL ages the same promise - that God will destroy the wicked. That the wicked will pay the price of "fire" destruction by fire.

Peter does the same thing in 2Peter 3 where he declares that at that 2nd coming event "The elements melt with a fervent heat" -- which is what we see in Rev 20 after the millennium -- thus combining both events in his picture of the intervention of God in human history at the 2nd coming.

in Christ,

Bob

 

1. Your objection only works if we revise history such that hindus or budhists eventually evolve into "Catholics". Such is not the case historically as the origin for the Catholic church. Historically it is the Christian church that goes into apostasy.

Just as Paul predicts in Acts 20 "From among your own selves" wolves arise teaching false doctrine.

Just as Paul directs Timothy in 1Tim 1 that he is to remain in Ephesus and combat the false doctrines arising from within.

Just as Paul directs Titus in Titus one -- to put down the false doctrines arising there.

And so when Paul says in 2Thess 2 that in the FUTURE this results in a "falling away" he is not talking about the present situation because that can hardly be an argument against someone sending a letter to them saying the "coming of Christ has occurred already".

Just stating the obvious here that I suppose we all agree with.

in Christ,

Bob

 

As noted previously - Paul commands Timothy to oppose the rise of false doctrines in Ephesus - as he also instructs Titus in Titus 1.

Never does he say "Ephesus has fallen" in fact Timothy is the pastor at Ephesus. Never does Paul say to Titus "the church has fallen away".

The dark ages of apstacy were still ahead of the christian church - history bears this out.

It did not happen in the first century.

 

In Matt 24 Jesus calls it recognizing the signs of the times "so WHEN you SEE all these SIGNS know that it is near".

1. Labeling that language "Confirmation bias" does nothing to change the point.

2. The careful reader will note that in each case above - secular authorities recognize the sign given as changing the course of history by starting some entire branch of science and study for mankind - since the event is so hard to "ignore" -- it is so massively significant EVEN to secular auhorities.

Thus the point remains.

The argument in scripture as found in Rev 6 is not that this is the "biggest earthquake ever" -- just that it is a "great earthquake" -- and science today estimates Lisbon at about a 9.0 would still call this a great earthquake with origins NOT in the middle of the ocean or remote desert.

As the source points out - the event was so significant it BEGAN the science of monitoring earthquakes.

As the secular source points out -- the event was so significant it BEGAN the science of monitoring meteor showers.

As the secular source points out --- the term "dark day" is applied uniquely to that one event. Never has it assigned to "dust storm" nor even "eclipse", NOR does the dictionary label every occurance of a dust storm as an historic "Dark Day". There is only "one".

Thus the details are pointing to far more significance than you are allowing. Even by secular non-SDA standards.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Again - you have missed a number of key inconvenient details in the text of scripture.

1. Rev 4 and 5 and 7 and 12, 21 all point to events applicable to "all mankind".
-The entire earth having the 4 winds of strife withheld (rev 7) from the entire earth, the first coming of Christ (Rev 12),
-The persecution of the saints following the first coming (rev 12 and 13, Dan 7 and Dan 8),
-The 2nd coming Rev 19 and destruction of all the wicked, The resurrection of all the saints AND then 1000 years later the lake of Fire destruction of ALL the wicked Rev 20,
-The city of God where ALL saints -- all mankind enters through 1 of 12 gates.
-The post Millennial time of no death for all the saints Rev 21.

There is no possible way to exclude the full scope of history from Daniel Revelation

What is -- and "what is to come" going all the way to the 2nd coming, resurrection of the saints, 1000 years, lake of fire, new heavens and new earth. ALL applicable to ALL mankind in some way.

in Christ,

Bob