The lower parts of the earth is the ground. It's not hell since hell is not located on the earth. Jesus first descended to earth, then returned to heaven.
The word here for "hell" is the word for "grave". "Hell" is a wrong interpretation. Jesus' soul did not stay in the grave nor did his body see corruption.
Last I read, Jesus' body was in the earth for 3 days. It never says His soul was there too.
Nope - not at all.
Since Jesus commended His Spirit to God upon His death, we know He went to heaven with His Father and that is where the thief went too.
Completely wrong Scripturally.
It is your interpretation but not consistent with Scripture.
(I'm answering fast because my computer is going to shut itself off in a couple of minutes - I HATE that it does this.)
Are Heaven and Paradise the same?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by th1bill, Oct 6, 2009.
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Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
I don't see any mention of heaven in this verse. And Jesus himself said he would be three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth. Jesus was speaking here of "trust". He is trusting his very soul into his Father's hands, who raised him up three days later.
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1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
I do not believe it is too much of a stretch to believe that when Enoch was translated that he was changed as shown in 1 Cor 15:51-52.
As for Elijah, nothing is said on this matter, so I won't comment. -
This passage is speaking of the death of the believer. Again, the passage Matthew 24:29-31 is the prelude to the resurrection of the believer. -
Yes, but the word "then" connects this verse to the preceding verses. So, this will not occur until those things that happen in verses 1-6 takes place.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
What I am showing is that you are pulling one verse out of context. -
From Jamieson, Faucett and Brown:
There is not one Scripture that supports Jesus going to hell. I'm sorry but the verses you have given do not prove it.
The word "paradise" in Luke 23:43 also used in two other passages. Do these speak of hell?
2 Corinthians 12:1-5 " 1I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter. "
Revelation 2:7 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."
How could the tree of life be in hell??
Next, when Jesus said "It is finished", why would He still have to go to hell? The price was paid. It was finished. He did not need to do any more work to atone for the sins of man.
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Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
If you want to listen to men try to explain this away, that is your choice.
These verses also show that Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
And you do not believe God the Father can be in hell? The scriptures say otherwise.
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
And if Jesus ascended up to God the Father when he died on the cross, why did he tell Mary Magdelene that he had not yet ascended to his Father on the day he rose from the dead?
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Now, if Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven to be with his Father, where was his soul for those three days? -
These 3 scriptures cover 2 different time periods...
Luke is pre resurrection
The other 2 are post resurrection...
I believe, like many Baptist before me, that Jesus took Paradise which was in the heart of the Earth to the Third Heaven upon his ascension...
So naturally, the scriptures in 2 Cor. and Rev. speak of Paradise and Heaven as the same...
But before that, Paradise was in the Heart of the Earth... with a big gulf seperating it from (Fiery) Hell. -
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Notice verse 8 says "when" he ascended up on high he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men. Perhaps this was the mansions Jesus spoke of, I am not completely certain on that.
But notice verse 9 says that he "first" descended into the lower parts of the earth. This phrase is also used in Psalms 63 and is clearly speaking of hell.
Psalms 63:9 But those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth. -
1st. Sheol does not mean grave onlyand should never be interpreted as such. Sheol means place of the dead and refers to both where the body is and where the spirit resides - at the same time. To speak of one (using this word) was to speak simultaneously of the other with emphasis more toward the spirit. Sheol is never used to mean only the grave. When the term is used There are other Hebrew words that mean grave, tomb, etc, and are used frequently in scripture. Sheol historically was understood in like manner that hades was, and is why both are used to speak of the same place. Hades which was like (or similar to) sheol was a place where both the godly and the ungodly dwell though they were in seperate places or better the comparments in which they resided were divided.
2nd. When Jesus stated 'into Your hands I commend My spirit' is a statement equivalent to 'my life/being is in Your hands' or 'the safety of my spirit is in Your care'.
This reflects David's prophetic statement of God not leaving His soul in sheol.
Sheol or the 'place of the dead' refers to both the physical and spiritual aspects at the same time.
However this, again, is after Christ's resurrection.
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tinytim said: ↑Ann, I just wanted to point this out...
These 3 scriptures cover 2 different time periods...
Luke is pre resurrection
The other 2 are post resurrection...
I believe, like many Baptist before me, that Jesus took Paradise which was in the heart of the Earth to the Third Heaven upon his ascension...
So naturally, the scriptures in 2 Cor. and Rev. speak of Paradise and Heaven as the same...
But before that, Paradise was in the Heart of the Earth... with a big gulf seperating it from (Fiery) Hell.Click to expand... -
I have already provided the scriptures, does it matter who presents them?
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
There it is in verse 8, it says "when" Jesus ascended he led captivity captive. Many believe this to be speaking of the saved who were in Paradise, which at that time was in the heart of the earth.
And verse 9 makes it clear that the ascension spoken of is after Jesus first descended into the "lower parts" of the earth.
The reason Jesus could not be touched was because as high priest he had to sprinkle his blood on the Mercy Seat. As Allan wrote, the blood of bulls and rams could only cover sins, not take them away. So men could not ascend into heaven until Jesus offered his own blood once and for all.
This compares to the blood offered by Aaron in Leviticus chapter 16. Read there and you will see the high priest had to wash himself and could not be touched by the people.
And the scriptures say Jesus became our high priest.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
And Jesus told Nicodemus that no man had ascended into heaven.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
You can listen to men if you want, but Jesus told Nicodemus that no man had ascended up to heaven. They could not until Jesus sprinkled his blood on the Mercy Seat there. -
I am in agreement with Winman. This view is quite common and in fact it is taught in the study notes of the King James Study Bible, which previously was the Liberty Study Bible of Liberty University.
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Winman said: ↑I have already provided the scriptures, does it matter who presents them?
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
There it is in verse 8, it says "when" Jesus ascended he led captivity captive. Many believe this to be speaking of the saved who were in Paradise, which at that time was in the heart of the earth.Click to expand...
Wherefore he saith (v. 8), that is, the Psalmist saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. David prophesied of the ascension of Christ; and the apostle descants upon it here, and in the three following verses. When he ascended up on high. We may understand the apostle both of the place into which he ascended in his human nature, that is, the highest heavens, and particularly of the state to which he was advanced, he being then highly exalted, and eminently glorified, by his Father. Let us set ourselves to think of the ascension of Jesus Christ: that our blessed Redeemer, having risen from the dead, in gone to heaven, where he sits at the right hand of the Majesty on high, which completed the proof of his being the Son of God. As great conquerors, when they rode in their triumphal chariots, used to be attended with the most illustrious of their captives led in chains, and were wont to scatter their largesses and bounty among the soldiers and other spectators of their triumphs, so Christ, when he ascended into heaven, as a triumphant conqueror, led captivity captive. It is a phrase used in the Old Testament to signify a conquest over enemies, especially over such as formerly had led others captive; see Judges 5:12. Captivity is here put for captives, and signifies all our spiritual enemies, who brought us into captivity before. He conquered those who had conquered us; such as sin, the devil, and death. Indeed, he triumphed over these on the cross; but the triumph was completed at his ascension, when he became Lord over all, and had the keys of death and hades put into his hands.Click to expand...
Jamieson, Faucett and Brown further say:
When he ascended--GOD is meant in the Psalm, represented by the ark, which was being brought up to Zion in triumph by David, after that "the Lord had given him rest round about from all his enemies" ( 2Sa 6:1 - 7:1 1Ch 15:1-29 ). Paul quotes it of CHRIST ascending to heaven, who is therefore GOD.
captivity--that is, a band of captives. In the Psalm, the captive foes of David. In the antitypical meaning, the foes of Christ the Son of David, the devil, death, the curse, and sin ( Col 2:15 2Pe 2:4 ), led as it were in triumphal procession as a sign of the destruction of the foe.Click to expand...
And verse 9 makes it clear that the ascension spoken of is after Jesus first descended into the "lower parts" of the earth.Click to expand...
The reason Jesus could not be touched was because as high priest he had to sprinkle his blood on the Mercy Seat. As Allan wrote, the blood of bulls and rams could only cover sins, not take them away. So men could not ascend into heaven until Jesus offered his own blood once and for all.Click to expand...
This compares to the blood offered by Aaron in Leviticus chapter 16. Read there and you will see the high priest had to wash himself and could not be touched by the people.
And the scriptures say Jesus became our high priest.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
And Jesus told Nicodemus that no man had ascended into heaven.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
You can listen to men if you want, but Jesus told Nicodemus that no man had ascended up to heaven. They could not until Jesus sprinkled his blood on the Mercy Seat there.Click to expand...
9Nicodemus said to him, "How can these things be?" 10Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. 12If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Once again, I read the Scriptures and see that Jesus Christ did not go to hell nor did He need to. It was upon His death that the gates of hell were broken - and even the grave, as we see that people were raised from the dead on His death - not after He went to hell for a few days. "It is finished" meant just that. -
Amy.G said: ↑I am in agreement with Winman. This view is quite common and in fact it is taught in the study notes of the King James Study Bible, which previously was the Liberty Study Bible of Liberty University.Click to expand...
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But why did Thomas touch Jesus? If you say that Jesus could not be touched because He had to sprinkle His blood on the Mercy Seat, then why was Thomas able to touch Him? Did He ascend, sprinkle the blood on the Mercy Seat and then come back again?Click to expand...
John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Notice the doors were shut. Jesus suddenly appeared in the midst of them.
And we could not come into the holiest (heaven) until Jesus blood was offered.
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Now we can enter in
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. -
annsni said: ↑Tim - Do you have any Scripture that shows this? That Jesus took Paradise to heaven?Click to expand...
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Winman said: ↑And Jesus told Nicodemus that no man had ascended into heaven.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
You can listen to men if you want, but Jesus told Nicodemus that no man had ascended up to heaven. They could not until Jesus sprinkled his blood on the Mercy Seat there.Click to expand...
You may ignore Ecclesiastes 12.7 and John Gill's interpretation if you choose but I believe that you are incorrect. In Ecclesiastes 3:21 we have a similar teaching:
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
John Gill comments on this passage as follows:
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward? &c.] There is indeed a difference between a man and a beast; though they have one breath, they have not one spirit or soul; man has a rational and immortal soul, which, when he dies, goes upwards to God that gave it; to be judged by him, and disposed of by him, in its proper apartment, until the day of the resurrection of the body;
and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? when the beast dies, its spirit goes down to the earth, from whence it came, and is resolved into it, and is no more. But who is it that sees, or can see and know with the eyes of his body, the difference of these two spirits, or the ascent of the one, and the descent of the other?, Or who knows by the dint of reason, by the strength of his own understanding, without a divine revelation, that man has an immortal soul which goes upwards at death, when that of a beast goes downwards? No man, clearly and fully, as appears from the doubts and half faith of the wisest Heathens concerning it: or rather who knows and considers this difference between the spirit of a man and the spirit of a beast, and thinks within himself what a precious and immortal soul he has, and is concerned for the salvation of it? Very few; and hence it is they live and die like beasts, as they do. The Midrash interprets this of the souls of the righteous that go up to heaven, and of the souls of the wicked that go down to hell.
It is not clear to me from reading your posts, and those who agree with you, whether you believe that the body and soul of Jesus Christ went to the hell of Satan or not. That is Word of Faith doctrine which is heretical.
I believe that when Jesus Christ, the man, died that His body went into the grave and His soul went into the presence of God to await the resurrection of His body. When Jesus Christ told the thief on the cross that they would be together in Paradise that day He was speaking of their spiritual natures and He meant they would be in the presence of GOD.
I have yet to see anyone present Scripture to show that Paradise of GOD is not Heaven. I believe that is the question posed in the OP is it not.
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