Let's discuss purgatory

Actually, we do know that it's in Heaven because it takes place after the first judgement, the Judgement of Nations (more commonly known as the Judgement of the Sheep and the Goats), and that judgement occurs after the bodily resurrection of the dead.

Actually, it only uses the metaphor of burning to describe the worthlessness of man's works, not punishing the righteous in literal fire.

I honestly did not see DHK's post in which he referred to two judgements. However, I can say with confidence from reading his other posts, that he will affirm the three judgements I cited for you.

Remember, he didn't say that there are only two judgements and not three. He merely said that he is talking about two judgements as they relate to one another.

 

First, Purgatory is not found in the Bible--not the concept, not the word.
Second, where else would you find all believers gathered together to be judged for their works. The Bible says many times: "So then every one shall be judged according to their works." Warnings such as these are given to believers.
This is the Scripture which verifies that it is in heaven. It is the same event that Paul is speaking about:

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
--The judgement seat of Christ is before Christ in heaven as the name implies.
--It again says that we will be judged according to our works, or the things done in our body--the things that we do whether good or bad.

1 Corinthians 3:11-12 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
--The whole picture is one large metaphor meant to teach us something. If we are to interpret this passage as literal as you are trying to be then Jesus would be a concrete slab of cement, and our works would literally look like wood, hay,...gold, silver,...etc. being put on this concrete foundation.
It is a metaphor; not to be taken quite as literal as you are taking it to be.
Christ is not a slab of concrete or cement or even wood. Get a grip here.

One Judgment: The Bema Seat of Christ--just after the rapture, during the tribulation, and before the Second Coming. (for believers only)
Second Judgment: The Great White Throne Judgement--After the Millennial Kingdom is over--for unbelievers only; their final sentence into the lake of fire.
Third Judgment--The Judgment of the Sheep and Goats: just before the Millennial Kingdom--It is a judgment of the nations; as to which nations were friendly to the Jews and which were not friendly to the Jewish nation.
These are the three judgements spoken of.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

We will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ, and that is not in purgatory where Christ is not. It is not on earth either. It is in heaven where Christ sits on his throne.
The picture is of works being burned. That picture is of works being lost. It is also a picture of reward being lost. Compare that to the Book of Revelation which gives the same warning in different words: Beware lest any man lose their reward. It doesn't speak of heat. This is a picture. There is no man burning up here. Christ is not a slab of concrete either. You can't take it that literally. You must draw the conclusions that Paul is teaching.

 

Where in the passage does it say believers are being purified? Why must you read Roman Catholic doctrine into this passage when there isn't any?
Their works will be manifest, or declared openly. It doesn't say that they will be punished in flames. That is not so.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

No.

Yes, but my question remains: what if in our lives here on earth we are not fully transformed - how is that transformation then effected? RB mentioned 'glorification' at death and I've asked him to unpack this a bit more - so far he hasn't.

 

Oooh, an easy one! Try Matt 5:48, Heb 10:14, 12:23, to name but three.

 

Mat 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Comment: Look at the Greek for perfect. This is not sinless perfection. Unless we take this to be justification.

Heb 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Comment: This is speaking in past tense. How does this square with your theology? This is justification. Look at the context.

Heb 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect

Comment: Based on your quotes so far, it appears to me that all your doing is applying your theology of blended justification and sanctification. No man on earth is without sin. If this is speaking about men alive on earth (and I think it is) it is speaking of their justification, not their sanctification.

Your Hebrews references must be taken in the context in which they were placed, both immediate and broad. And I know you will agree. The book of Hebrews, in the main, is the about the superiorty and supremecy of sacrifice and redemption of Christ Jesus over the Old Covenant. These Scriptures you are referencing speak to that.

As one commentator put it, and I like it: "... by his sacrifice, has perfected, and has perfectly fulfilled the law for them; he has perfectly expiated their sins; he has obtained the full pardon of all their sins, and complete redemption; he has perfectly justified them from all things, and that for ever..."

 

I think DHK and maybe others have addressed this.

Are you a Baptist who believes in or desires to defend purgatory? If so, you are the first one I met that does so. Are you considering becoming Roman Catholic?

 

I don’t know whether there is a Purgatory or not but from my perspective it is something that is eminently defensible. From your perspective it is impossible to defend and even if you could defend Purgatory it would serve no purpose. Let me explain.

One of your most closely held beliefs is eternal security. A corollary to eternal security is the belief that when you are saved all sins are forgiven—past, present and future. I’m sure there are some who believe in eternal security but not in forgiveness of all sins for all time, but there aren’t many. If you believe this, you are convinced that one who is saved cannot die with unforgiven sin. JDF, Amy, DHK and others have argued on this thread that for the saved person death is the doorway to instant glorification. Therefore, Purgatory has no use. There would be no one to go there. Since it is completely useless, it becomes difficult if not impossible draw the inference that certain scripture passages support its existence.

I have always believed eternal security is a false doctrine. Neither of the two Baptist churches where I have served the entire 64 years of my life ever paid much attention to doctrine, so I didn’t understand until relatively recently how tenaciously Baptists cling to the doctrine of eternal security. But that is off topic. If you believe it is possible to fall from grace, then you cannot believe that all sins are forgiven for all time when you are saved. Instead, when you are saved you are given a clean slate that can and does get dirty with future sin. These sins can be forgiven but if you die with unforgiven sin you cannot gain entry into Heaven. Therefore, a place where these unforgiven sins can be purged so you can enter Heaven pure and clean (Purgatory) makes perfectly good sense.

At this point you may ask, “If Purgatory purges us of all unforgiven sins, doesn’t this mean all Christians eventually go to Heaven?” This would make eternal security a reality. The Bible doesn’t teach eternal security of the believer, so there must be other doctrines at work here. One possibility is the Catholic concept of mortal sin and venial sin, which I find makes eminently good sense and also finds support in scripture. Under this concept, one who dies with unforgiven mortal sin goes straight to Hell, and Purgatory is only for purifying a person of venial sins.

Due to time constraints, I have done this rather fast and have not quoted any scripture, although there is scriptural support for every thing I have said. I realize there is also scriptural support for your beloved doctrine of eternal security but the overriding theme of the New Testament is that doers of evil deeds do not go to Heaven, and all of us do evil deeds now and then. Hopefully rarely.

So, Marcia, I’m not really a champion of the doctrine of Purgatory but I can make a good case for it. I can also make a case against it but it is somewhat weak without also making a case for eternal security of the believer. In any event, whether you do or don’t believe in it will not affect your eternal destiny. That is determined by whether Jesus Christ is the Lord of our lives.

As for your question, “Are you considering becoming Roman Catholic?”, it is more like I sometimes wonder why I have remained a Baptist all these years. I love my local church and the people in it. They are like family. But the fact remains that I don’t believe in eternal security, I do believe in baptismal regeneration and I do believe in a top down rather than a congregational form of church governance. Since Catholics hold all these beliefs, and since they have been around longer than any other group, it is only natural that I would be looking at them very carefully.

 

How do you know?

Actually, the main refutations of Purgatory are that it is not taught in scripture and that it undermines the atonement of Christ, when he said "It is finished."

The idea that you can die unforgiven even though you trusted Christ would mean
1. Jesus' atonement was insufficient
2.When you trusted Christ, you were not forgiven of all sins
3. The penalty was not paid for sins
4. You have to do something, or something additional to the suffering and death on the cross must be done so that you can enter heaven.

The above points totally undermine and imo, go against, the Bible's teaching on what the atonement was.

Otherwise, the gospel would be: you have eternal life if you trust in Christ and are purged after death.

I do not think there is biblical support for the above.

"Beloved doctrine?" That's clearly supposed to be sarcastic and a slight.

Doers of evil deeds and the wicked are the unrepentant in the Bible. You are equating the unrepentant and those who reject Christ with those who have trusted in Christ.

It certainly does not sound like you hold to Baptist beliefs, especially with the baptismal regeneration and needing more forgiveness/purging in order to get into heaven. I hope you are not a SS teacher in your church. I say that seriously.

 

Orthodoxy! Orthodoxy! Don't forget the Orthodox Church!

In XC
-

 

I hope he is...

In XC
-

 

My sister and I have had a similar journey. My sister was a Baptist missionary in Mexico for a long time before becoming Catholic. It took me a few years longer as my Baptist church was like a family.

Both of us love our local Baptist church and both of us have life time prayer partners there.

The Lord bless you where ever you wind up.

 

Because your posts always express Baptist doctrine and that is a very big point of Baptist doctrine. I notice you don’t try to deny it.

In the first post I made on this tread I said Purgatory is not expressly taught in scripture. However, it does not undermine the atonement of Christ. It only shows that those in Purgatory did not fully avail themselves of the gift of grace made available through this atonement.

Doesn’t mean that.

Bingo! When you trusted Christ, you were only forgiven of sins you had already committed.

Doesn’t mean that.

Well, yes. I submit you must be baptized. I know you disagree but even you would say you have to believe. That is doing something additional.

1 John 5:16-17, and I know you will say “leads to death” refers to physical death not spiritual death. You’re entitled to your opinion, and that’s all it is, but don’t deny me the right to be entitled to mine as well.

No, I’m very good at sarcasm but that isn’t it. I’m being totally serious and certainly didn’t mean to be disrespectful. If you took it as a slight I apologize.

Are you saved? I think your answer is yes. Have you ever done an evil deed since you were saved? I know I certainly have and I’m certainly not unrepentant.

 

I’ve been a regular SS teacher for about 26 years, except for one year in which I took a “sabbatical.” My class is well attended and no one has ever complained. We have some spirited discussions.

 

I do believe in eternal security but wondered how you could be so sure. Some Baptists do not (at least here on the BB).

How does it show that? One avails him/herself of the gift of grace by believing in Christ.

So does this mean no Christian goes to heaven after death? Or only those who are able to ask forgiveness with their dying breath?

Exactly. That does say Christ's death was not sufficient.

How can I deny you your right to an opinion? This is a discussion/debate forum.

There is strong biblical support for it meaning leading to physical death, such as the references to those who abused the Lord's Supper and therefore now "sleep," and the deaths of Aninias and Sapphira.

Of course I have sinned since I was saved. But I am forgiven and I ask for forgiveness when I know I need it. I even ask for forgiveness for things I may have done and did not know about. Christ's blood has covered my sins. I cannot outsin the blood of Christ or the grace of God; you think you can because since you need to be purged, Christ's blood was not enough to cover you. If you think about it, that puts more of the focus on you than on Christ. It means you can do things that faith in Christ was insufficient to forgive.

You're saying that those who commit evil deeds and Christians who go to purgatory are the same. Those who commit evil deeds and are outside the city in Revelation are unrepentant; they will go to the lake of fire.

 

I didn't say Roman Catholic. The last time I checked Orthodoxy is also Catholic.

 

Is the church/pastors aware of your beliefs in baptismal regeneration and sympathy toward purgatory? Did you sign a doctrinal statement? If so, are you not violating it if you believe in baptismal regeneration?

If my pastors knew you had those views, you would not be able to teach Sunday School at my church.