Yes. I'll take your word for it and ignore the likes of:
Jesus
The Apostle Paul
Augustine
Luther
Calvin
Whitfield
Spurgeon
Would this be a fair statement?
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by saved and sure, Dec 15, 2017.
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saved and sure MemberSite Supporter
You are mistaken.
Just because God purposes to select, from all that are already going to the lake of fire, those that are to be redeemed, does not mean that God "predestined" those to hell who by their own nature are walking that Broadway.
They are already condemned, ALL are already destined for hell. There is no "predetermination" made by God as to the fate of those who of their own will determine to destine themselves to the Lake of Fire. ALL are "condemned already," except of those He purposes for His glory and pleasure to redeem.[/QUOTE]
According to you, God has made the decision to chose those He is not choosing for heaven. They go to hell. You cannot have it both ways. If he chooses some for heaven, then by default God chooses some for hell. -
And I'm not denying the just-ness of their condemnation, so we can shelve that, for brevity's sake. -
How dare you tell the potter what He can and cannot do!
You are the clay. He will make what He desires and use that vessel as He desires.
You do not know the opening chapters of Romans totally destroys your thinking?
Does not Romans 9 also refute your view?
19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.God expressing enormous patience is WILLING to demonstrate HIS wrath and to make KNOWN His power, by allowing the ungodly to run their course to destruction.
Why?
To make "known the riches of His glory upon the vessels of mercy that He prepared before hand."
See the difference?
The vessels "prepared before hand" are NOT those who willfully run to ruin. -
saved and sure MemberSite Supporter
Acts 16:
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. -
See, again you make it as if GOD CHOSE those for destruction.
He did not. ALL humankind choose destruction. That is not God's will, for He "desires that all come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2).
But they do not, because they will not. As John states, they loved darkness more than light. They hate light, push back and scheme against light.
God takes from all that already are destined for destruction (for all have sinned) and redeems those of His design and purpose. -
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saved and sure MemberSite Supporter
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saved and sure MemberSite Supporter
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What wages does sin pay?
What is the ultimate destiny of all who do not believe? Is that God's choice?
What does the Scriptures present must take place that one believe?
Is that God's choice? -
Perhaps you should re-read that section of Romans (start in 8 and read through 10) and verify what Paul is discussing. -
saved and sure MemberSite Supporter
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Of course, you believe He created people to see them tormented for ever and ever with no end and no mercy because they refused to believe, and that is, according to you, what a God of justice and wrath would actually do.
Unless, of course, you deny hell or that unrepentant sinners go there for all eternity. -
NO one can. ALL have come short!
Somehow, I get the impression that you want to hold that people have some common ability to choose what is righteous.
That is not Scripture presentation.
There is NOT anyone righteous of their own volition. Not one! (Romans)
EVERYONE has turned away, ALL have gone their own way and not that of righteousness.
Not a single person has authority of their own will to gain God's attention and be redeemed.
John states, "NOT of the will of man..." (John 1) -
saved and sure MemberSite Supporter
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Cf Ex 33:19
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." Cf Ex 9:16 -
Have I not presented to you answers or did I miss something? -
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saved and sure MemberSite Supporter
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saved and sure MemberSite Supporter
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