What exactly in scripture makes you think tongues were not languages?
Acts 2:4-6 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
IF You Hold To Sign Gifts Operating, what verse/Function?
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by DaChaser1, Mar 8, 2012.
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righteousdude2 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Twisting in the wind...
And I never directly accused her of using satanic tactics. I said that the example she provided was the same used by the devil on Jesus in the wilderness temptations.
So, once again, you are twisting words, and meanins to make yourself appear all puffed up and bigger than life. :sleep: -
righteousdude2 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
It depends on the text....
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
You never answered my one main question to you.....in your personal attacks directed at me.....you say several times that i want everyone to believe exactly what I believe, or that I think everything I post is right.
I answered you by saying that everyone posts what they believe is true.
No one posts error intentionally. The truth is you do not like the teaching , the doctrine ,that I offer,You do not like the historic confessions of faith, because they agree. When I post a link...you can not answer it.
You keep objecting ..saying my theology, my view, but you have no answer to the millions who hold exactly what i hold to as the truth of God.
You would not let it go. I would have kept this disagreement private if you emptied your inbox, when you sent your pompous Pm.
There is no way we are going to agree on much here dude...as you go outside of scripture...with your prophet....and your "special tongue"...which somehow is not a language now?? there is no agreement possible here, you have another gospel according to your posting to me...remember when you said the god I follow..or whatever it was ??? I think you went over the edge.
Maybe someone else can communicate with you better than I can. My real brothers offer me correction from scripture if i drift off....not personal attacks.
Dude not for anything ...but you would be an easy target if i wanted to rip on you personally.....but that is an ungodly approach to our differences.
if you are going to post in a debate forum...then get questioned....be prepared to answer...if not you are going to continue to get upset,and defensive which does no one any good.
sorry I cannot help you dude... -
righteousdude2 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Well. you said what I said...
And as far as it being a secret language that the devil cannot understand. Well, that is bunk. If the devil could go to God and talk to Him about Job, I would never be dumb enough to say that Satan is not able to understand what our prayers to God are. It was apparent that Satan heard everything that went on between Job and God, which is why he asked God for permission to test Job!
Why can't you simply let it lay as I have said, because I am not going to call it a tongue, when I clearly believe it was a language then and remains so today? Again, you say tomato, and I say tomatoe! No big deal. Unless you are willing to come right out tell me that my belief in it being a language vs, a tongue will keep me from going to heaven?
Is that what you are trying to say? -
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righteousdude2 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Twisting, Again!
Because if that is not what you are insinuating, then why the hard push to get me to believe as you? It sure seems that you have set yourself up as judge and jury when it comes to what I believe and how I interpret Scripture, and that is not up to you do. Never once did I try to convince you that my way was the only, or right way. However, that is what this whole thing has come down to. It's your way or the highway when it comes to those of us on this board that may be a little to the left or right of what you call main line Baptist theology. If you can live with yourself, fine with me. You don't bother me, but I am concerned as to your underlying pining that if I believe the way, I do; I may not get eternal life!
As I said in another post to you: I am perfectly happy with MY LIFE IN JESUS CHRIST!
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: -
Lighten up Francis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OnpkDWbeJs
RD2, Please take Amy's advice...you are way too sensitive to debate. It may be best for you to not debate as you get easily twisted.
Also, no one is even slightly questioning where you will spend eternity. -
I see it as NOT revealtion, nor really a sign gift, but that the HS can still prompt/urge/direct/convict saints in order to have the Will of God done, and he always will do that aspect in perfect alnement with the bible! -
that one MUST speak in tongues to evidence that fact?
that we can confess and speak by words/faith things to happen?
that its will of God for all of to prosper health and money wise, if we dont, "lack of faith?"
And what would sign gifts actually be used for? -
EVEN paul had "lost" power to heal later on in bible, and the writer of hebrews stated that those signs and wonders to confirm the truths Apsotle gave, but were pretty much NOT in the generation following the Apostles! -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
However, authority in the Kingdom is God is administrated through words, among other activities. For instance, the centurion who asked Jesus to heal his servant who was paralyzed understood that kingdoms were managed by commands. He recognized the Kingdom of God for what it was, God’s authority upon the heavens and earth, and he had confidence in Jesus as the primary Administrator of that authority to heal his servant with a command from a distance. (See Matthew 8:5-13)
Many of the miracles that Jesus and the apostles performed were performed (as far as the human aspect goes) exclusively by command.
Unfortunately, we've had several individuals who want to ascribe all kinds of heretical and abusive theology to those who disagree with them, so it is understandable that some of our positions may not be as clear as they should be.
Thank you for actually asking instead of misrepresenting/mocking. -
The Lord can still do IF its according to His will a "sign and wonder" as in healing someone, but that is ALL His choose to heal as a miracle or not...
Also, Do know that God can still do limited amount of such to establish the gospel in unevangelized areas IF He so choses, but even that would cease when gospel was confirmed in those lands!
Also, 'sign gifts" would be those that in NT use were revealtory in nature, issued by God through ofiice of the NT Apostles/prophets, buit are those 2 offoces still in effect today in church? -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Paul raised a young man from the dead in Acts 20:9-12...
If you are commenting on Paul's "thorn in the flesh", that is not about the ability to heal, since the ability to heal has always been granted according to the sovereign will of God. Jesus Himself only healed people as the Father directed, not according to His own will (see John 5:19-30, among many other passages in John regarding the relationship between Jesus and the Father).
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What scriptures do you use to support your belief? Do you have personal experience with sign gifts?
Paul did not heal Timothy of his stomach ailment. He did not heal Epaphroditus, and he was not able to rid himself of the thorn in his side. Why not? -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
When I am referring to sign gifts, I am primarily referring to the list of gifts in 1 Corinthians 12:8-11, which consists of word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, healing, effecting of miracles (some include exorcism as a miracle, but I don't think it necessarily applies), prophecy, distinguishing of spirits, kinds of tongues, and interpretation of tongues.
I believe the gifts are still available and in operation (according to the will of God, not to will of the person wanting to exercise the gift) is that there is no scripture teaching that the gifts have ended. Furthermore, there is evidence in the lives of believes that at least some of the gifts are still in operation. Please note that there is no scriptural requirement for ALL of the gifts to be operation in ALL cultures and ages.
word of wisdom - Infrequent personal experience
word of knowledge - Knowingly exercised several times a year, sometimes more often if I'm ministering to numerous people in crisis.
faith - I don't know what this would look like, so I can't say either way.
healing - Personally involved in one healing at a hospital in Torrington, Wyoming in March 1987.
effecting of miracles - No, unless you count exorcism. The last time I needed to exercise authority over the demonic was Spring 1991.
prophecy - I'm not sure if this differs from speaking "truth to power" or involves supernatural insight. There's a pretty good chance this has been exercised through me, but I can't tell you for sure.
distinguishing of spirits - Frequently manifested in my life.
kinds of tongues - Never personally manifested in my life. I have only seen one instance I thought was legitimate (July 4, 1987 at Stewart Beach in Galveston, Texas).
interpretation of tongues - Never personally manifested in my life. I have only seen one instance I thought was legitimate (July 4, 1987 at Stewart Beach in Galveston, Texas).
For the record, I wouldn't characterized many (if any) of these experiences as being "emotional" or "feeling-oriented" like so many detractors assume. I cannot specifically think of any particular incident described above as being emotional except for potentially some of the incidents involving commanding demonic spirits. On several of those occasions, I was rather irritated because I was getting tired of the constant harassment.
Even Jesus did not heal everyone. If you notice in John 5, Jesus picked only one person by the Pool of Siloam to heal.
So real question should be "Why does God sometimes heal people?"
The answer is that God sometimes heals people to bring Himself glory, as an act of mercy, and to further His purposes. Those who allow themselves to be used to express the sign gifts usually understand this. -
That they did--when the Apostles all died off near the end of the first century, for they were signs to verify an apostle--"signs of an apostle."
That they did--for history itself verifies this: not much about speaking in tongues is recorded after the first century except by cults and paganism.
Why do you think that falls under "word of knowledge"?
That is not word of knowledge IMO, and according to my study. Word of knowledge has nothing to do with the affairs of others. It had directly to do with revelatory knowledge--knowledge that now is in the Bible, but was not in the Bible previously. When these gifts were operational the Bible was not yet complete. When the Bible was completed (perfected), then that which was in part (tongues, prophecy, knowledge (revelatory) ), these all passed away, ended. They had no more purpose.
The Holy Spirit guides today. If your walk is close with God, God can reveal at times things to you. If you are not walking close with God, even Christians can get caught up in the paranormal, which is what you also have described. I am not saying it is. I trust your walk is close with God.
What you say goes against Scripture:
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
--The Scripture tells that in OT times God spoke through the prophets at various times in different ways--visions, dreams, audibly, through miracles at times, etc.
But now he speaks to us through His Son. His Son is revealed to us through the completed Word of God, not through miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit. They are not needed. Everything that we need is in the Scriptures.
You did not describe "word of knowledge" as it is known in the Bible. You described: zeal, an ability to speak well, being led by the Holy Spirit, and hopefully being filled with the Holy Spirit. There was no "word of knowledge" there. That gift has ceased, and had to directly with the giving of NT revelatory knowledge. It ended by the first century when the revelation of God's Word was complete. It is strange to me that you have no remembrance of what is said. That would lead me to believe you were in a trance like condition, and your experience is more related to the paranormal than to Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit leads into truth and is not forgetful.
Have you ever seen anyone with the gift of healing walk through all the hospitals of any given city and heal everyone that is there--especially those that are in the ER?
It doesn't happen. The gift has ceased.
Why aren't missionaries given the gift of tongues (languages)?
Why do they have to learn the language before they go over to a foreign field? Why isn't that gift legitimately in use today?
The reason is because they have ceased. -
I do tend to see this as similiar to yourself, at least as explained in THIS post, but still still signs gifts that functioned as revelation from god prior to canon completed as NOT for today, as we have the Bible now, and God closed off the offices of Apostle/prophet in NT after the Apsotolic Age!Click to expand...
Important to have all of us here on the BB be meaning the same way regarding this terms being used here, as at times what those holding to the HS still operating in some fashion along with the Bible!
Whenever one mentions "outside the Bible", many here assume meaning extra biblical revelation etc, but that is NOT what I would mean by that term! -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporterrighteousdude2 said: ↑I have only one question to ask you: ARE YOU SO FULL OF YOURSELF THAT YOU ARE WILLING TO SAY THAT because of thing I've shared that I'm not going to heaven?
Because if that is not what you are insinuating, then why the hard push to get me to believe as you? It sure seems that you have set yourself up as judge and jury when it comes to what I believe and how I interpret Scripture, and that is not up to you do. Never once did I try to convince you that my way was the only, or right way. However, that is what this whole thing has come down to. It's your way or the highway when it comes to those of us on this board that may be a little to the left or right of what you call main line Baptist theology. If you can live with yourself, fine with me. You don't bother me, but I am concerned as to your underlying pining that if I believe the way, I do; I may not get eternal life!
As I said in another post to you: I am perfectly happy with MY LIFE IN JESUS CHRIST!Click to expand...
Thank you for your response here Dude:thumbs::wavey: This was the question i wanted you to respond to. We both got a little heated perhaps.
This is a much better interaction here.
have only one question to ask you: ARE YOU SO FULL OF YOURSELF THAT YOU ARE WILLING TO SAY THAT because of thing I've shared that I'm not going to heaven?Click to expand...
ARE YOU SO FULL OF YOURSELFClick to expand...
THAT YOU ARE WILLING TO SAY THAT because of thing I've shared that I'm not going to heaven?[/Click to expand...
It is not my place to say that to any person.That Judgement belongs to God alone who sees the heart. You can be wrong on many doctrines and still go to heaven if you are the object of God's saving grace.
I will never say you are going to heaven , or hell....that is between you and God. Sometimes i see warning signs in someones posts...
for example QF....likes to branch out and consider some of the NPP. and open theism teaching and teachers.....I voiced a concern to him. He is a big boy...he told me he is fine...thats all i can do.
I will read the posts in here and comment on what i see as good edifying posts....and others the contain partial truth partial error. I will comment on posts that are wrong. I try to help those who want help...there are some..
you, winman, benjamin, have let me know you are not looking for help...that is fine with me.
I look to offer good links to those who are teachable.
I will answer sincere objections to the grace of God---calvinism....as best as I can, with scripture, links, sermons,etc. I do not despise godly teachers that God has given as gifts to His church.
Dude.....if you come at me with an agenda to attack....I will respond and you might not like the response you get...but it will come.
if someone is sincere..i respond that way....if someone pokes a stick in my eye...i will stop them however that takes place...
if someone is trying to harm me.... i will deal with it as i need to.
4Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
5Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceitClick to expand...
Because if that is not what you are insinuating, then why the hard push to get me to believe as you?Click to expand...
I have seen you many times try to help people in here...that is a good thing.
i might have given you a thumbs up, or two....
However...this area of an open canon, false gifts, new revelation....is a direct attack on the FAITH...once delievered to the saints JUDE 3
once for all time delievered.... It is dangerous and rampant in our day...
If you look back ...when you first reacted to my posts...I used the expression WOF...Light......in other words....you distance your self from the WOF heretics, which is good....but what I see is you opening the door to it,like JF and several others in here. If it makes you feel any better...I am openly critical of John Piper, and wayne grudem...as they do the same.
they help many people in many areas....I am not saying they personally are ungodly....In this area..they do the church no favor and in fact do damage.
It sure seems that you have set yourself up as judge and jury when it comes to what I believe and how I interpret Scripture, and that is not up to you do.Click to expand...
Never once did I try to convince you that my way was the only, or right way.Click to expand...
Once you offer scripture...the blood is of your head...ezk33 has this principle that the apostles used;
7So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
8When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
9Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.Click to expand...4And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
5And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
6And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean; from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.Click to expand...However, that is what this whole thing has come down to. It's your way or the highway when it comes to those of us on this board that may be a little to the left or right of what you call main line Baptist theology.Click to expand...
with a new believer be more patient and plant seeds of truth..with those hardened against truth, who mock and ridicule...i will try to offer correction..but then fully expose the error....Let the reader decide:thumbsup:
If you can live with yourself, fine with meClick to expand...
You don't bother me, but I am concerned as to your underlying pining that if I believe the way, I do; I may not get eternal life!Click to expand...
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